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Post by kenglowhite on Mar 30, 2020 11:49:29 GMT
Yes, Owdlad if the season were continued there would be some silly results, yet WE could rightly claim we have enough games to play to rescue our status. In reply to One2M I would remind everyone that insurance companies don't pay out on force majeure, so why should the football laegues?
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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 30, 2020 12:45:16 GMT
I don’t think the problem is playing games in short time owdon, I think it’s more the social distancing and obvious physical closeness of players that makes a resumption impossible. It would be extremely unfair on Liverpool with the lead they currently have and also on the likes of WBA and Leeds who look favourites for promotion to the PL but you can’t run football for just a handful of teams and must look at the whole league in total. Whatever the Leagues do, it won’t please everybody but money shouldn’t be the primary reason for decision making because the future of many clubs and not just small ones, could be put in danger. Void the season now and end any uncertainty, at least clubs can work with that.
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Post by OohMac on Mar 30, 2020 12:49:05 GMT
It is a shame so much of the season had been played. When the season was cancelled in 39/40 for WW11 it was in September, i.e early in the season. If the Virus had kicked in around the halfway stage of our current season I would agree to a cancellation without thinking twice. However, i can see that a lot of injustice will be caused. For example it would be very unfair if Liverpool are not pronounced champions, equally that teams like ours don't get relegated. I saw that one non league team (Jersey?) had won all 27 of their 27 games only to be told "tough luck, start again next season". On the other hand, insisting that we finish this season and potentially delaying (or cancelling) the next is also unfair. What to do with out of contract players? Another transfer window within the season will allow some teams to strengthen while weakening others (imagine that Aston Villa buy a striker from Norwich for example. His goals then help keep Villa up and his absence affects Norwich negatively). As a Bolton fan I hope the season is cancelled and we start again whenever that may be. But, I would feel genuinely sorry for many fans (and players, managers etc) who will miss out on deserved trophies because of a force majeure. Yeah ive had the same "what if" scenarios. I think signing and registering a player would be out of sync, like a foreign team signing in January, they will stay at the club until the conclusion of this season so if Villa or West Ham signed Cantwell and Pukki they would only feature in 2020/21 season, whenever of if ever that takes place. Point being are they going to play thier best to keep thier club up at the expense of thier new club. Weve seen ourselves with Magennis and Oztumer that if players dont want to play they wont. And players wont risk getting injured if a new contract is not signed. For us, it doesnt bode well, for all anyone can say about Luca Connells impact, he will have a new contract with no danger of his club going to the wall. Ronan Darcy is going to be out, with us now possibly not being able to offer him a decent contract without knowing what division we may be in. Effectively he can get to June, we could release him or he may be forced to stay and play(to conclude) and run the risk of costing him his next club. Its hard for us to keep these players. First team football or not players need the strongest contracts as possible as this proves anything can happen. So i still stand by two options: Finish the season before June. Play 3 or 4 times a week. Or effectively allow clubs to "declare" dead rubber games as 0-0 so only games that matter to free the calender. Or void. Everyone will point to Liverpool but actually Liverpool should probably be thinking this squad, this era is not a flash in the pan, so we dont win this season but we will win the next 8 of 10 because we're untouchable. The biggest losers could be Sheff Utd who potentially could get champions league debut season? Leicester back in the elite. Will Vardy ever have a good a run again? Doubtful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 15:29:22 GMT
Some good points Oom, but I still stand by Kenglo's and whites "season null and void". It's okay for the money men to hang on to the season, but will the players "down tools"? Playing multiple games in a week is also going to undermine their attitude towards complaining against congested fixture lists, in a normal season.
I don't think there'd be too many dead rubbers, as each place higher up the table is more money. I can sympathize with Liverpool, but they may have to eat Shankly's words, football is not more important than death.
Season null and void, no winner's; no loser's. It's that simple.
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Post by OohMac on Mar 30, 2020 17:30:16 GMT
Most will say Liverpool and Leeds are the victims, but thats the back story and should have no basis.
Had this been mid 90s then Fergie probably would have said that he wants to play on and win it but if not would see the psychological win and go again.
Liverpool because of their wait makes it seem we cant abandon, like the Leicester season, it seems too harsh but it shouldnt really come into it.
Also everyone mentions Leeds but not much heard from West Brom. Again the story of Leeds long run and oh so nears seems to be the reason for rushing and forcing the season.
Has it been West Brom and QPR then the concensus will have been, theyve been there before they will come again.
Of course as a fan if we were on the cusp of achieving something great and it was taken from us it would be very hard to take but this is a pandemic. People will have suffered far greater than not winning a sports tournament.
In future though i would say if over 66% of the games have been played the season would end as is or go to the eggheads for a Lewis/Duckworth mathematical conclusion.
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Post by kenglowhite on Mar 30, 2020 20:03:16 GMT
I think the bottom line is this - just like schools football is unlikely to restart before September- so what will our ex supermarket and FMCG managers who now control football decide is the best for ALL CLUBS?
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Post by OohMac on Mar 31, 2020 19:46:54 GMT
So 100 strong letter from chairmen/ceo to object to the null and void decision from FA.
I wonder how many realistic and alternative options were given by this hundred strong think tank.
Ive gone 180 now. I used to say, test the players, behind closed doors games. Now i just think it wouldnt work. Firstly if were testing people test GPs, NHS, etc before footballers. Secondly how much would that go against government advice.
Are we really just to "pause" the season. Nobody move, everyone stay exactly as you are for 6 months until we can give Liverpool a rosette and then think of something then.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 20:56:58 GMT
Oom, you said 50% of it in the last paragraph. The other 50% being the TV contract money, which presumably has been spent, but must be paid back. These guys aren't buying football clubs for a hobby.
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Post by whitesince63 on Apr 1, 2020 7:31:54 GMT
I suspect these 100 CEO/owners wouldn’t even think about an alternative OM, it’s only the money they will think of. In fact if they really sat down and thought about it the implications of not cancelling the season are many and I’m sure will themselves lead to legal challenges from players forced to stay at clubs and forego lucrative moves, as well as sponsors who will already have agreed new deals and possibly already have kit in stock and other merchandising items. I’m assuming many of these deals between players, clubs and sponsors have already been agreed and these will presumably be from the end of June when old agreements end, so if they do restart, who’s kit will the players wear, who’s name will be on the shirts and possibly Stadia? Resuming the season could have as many legal challenges as voiding so surely the question should be what’s the most sensible and logical decision to make and for me, as well as being the simplest and letting people just get on as normal, is to cancel the season and start again. Of course we know they won’t, who ever heard of these numptys ever making a sensible and logical decision?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 11:38:22 GMT
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Post by one2many on Apr 2, 2020 8:11:49 GMT
Thanks for sharing that.
I agree with what you say about lawyers (guess what i do for a living!). In law you have to cover your back and if a client asks you "what could happen if..." you need to give them every possible outcome, however negative that looks. Doing so stops the client coming back to you in six months and saying " you never warned me about...."
In saying that, the vast majority of things that lawyer speaks about would be unlikely to happen. Yes, Leeds could sue the EFL for denying them promotion but there is no jurisprudence. It would take a very brave judge to say categorically that Leeds would go up and that the EFL deliberately cancelled the season (and their promotion chances) for any reason other than unavoidable external circumstances.
People often have the mistaken view that the law is there to be fair. That is not its main purpose but rather to judge FACTS. The key fact may turn out to be that the 19/20 season could not be concluded because of events out of everybodys control. Would it be fair that Liverpool don't win the PL, that Leeds don't go up and that we don't get relegated? Is it fair that players will miss out on bonuses? that fans did not get full value of their season ticket/TV subscription? Probably not. But the fact of the matter is that is what happened and no person or body can be held to blame. There are many things in life which are not fair. A drunk driver kills a mother of two young children and gets 6 years in prison. Fair? A hardworking family man pays tax that subsidises some who don't want to work but rather live on government handouts? Fair? You pull a muscle lifting your suitcase on the first day of your expensive Caribbean holiday and spend two weeks on your back in the hotel. Fair?
In brief, I would guess that the Sports' lawyer who was interviewed has his own vested interest in the season being completed. His firms' website, talking about Sport says: "We work passionately for clubs and talent, using our regulatory expertise to negotiate deals, manage rights and maximise value." Who do we think his clients might be? For sure, those who have the most to lose by a cancellation of the season. His final comment that cancelling the season will be "total chaos" perhaps refers more to the effect on how much he can invoice and not the effect on the clubs and leagues.
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Post by whitesince63 on Apr 2, 2020 9:08:59 GMT
Good post O2M, not being a legal eagle like you, even my complete novice belief would be that circumstances would outweigh any legal objection clubs or players would take through voiding of the season. It seems to me to illustrate just how selfish and inward thinking football has become compared even to other sports. Euros cancelled, Olympics cancelled despite athletes training and buildings constructed, Wimbledon cancelled, Open Championship cancelled, Chelsea Flower Show cancelled, in fact every serious event cancelled despite all the money and inconvenience to participants and sponsors yet I’ve heard no talk of people prepared to go legal over losses. Yet the ignorant cretins that run football can’t see the obvious sense in cancelling the season because it inconveniences a few ponce players and club owners. Let’s hope if anything this shows up football for what it has become, a bloated, self interested infestation of mindless idiots.
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Post by OohMac on Apr 2, 2020 9:25:39 GMT
Interesting article for every scenario raises more and more questions. I think the article states that a committee needs to be set up. Rugby has allowed for relegation and promotion based on probability.
Personally ive no issue with someone saying theyve taken emotion out of the game and worked purely on the stats and Bolton would be relegated, Liverpool would win. They for me are inevitable. But on that you need to say 2 from Villa, Watford, Bournemouth and West Ham would join Norwich and we're talking goal differences.
Then could you even then go into a playoff situation? Or would it go top 3 or even 2 up 2 down?
And then if you wont accept that then you cannot pick and choose.
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Post by OohMac on Apr 2, 2020 9:30:13 GMT
Good post O2M, not being a legal eagle like you, even my complete novice belief would be that circumstances would outweigh any legal objection clubs or players would take through voiding of the season. It seems to me to illustrate just how selfish and inward thinking football has become compared even to other sports. Euros cancelled, Olympics cancelled despite athletes training and buildings constructed, Wimbledon cancelled, Open Championship cancelled, Chelsea Flower Show cancelled, in fact every serious event cancelled despite all the money and inconvenience to participants and sponsors yet I’ve heard no talk of people prepared to go legal over losses. Yet the ignorant cretins that run football can’t see the obvious sense in cancelling the season because it inconveniences a few ponce players and club owners. Let’s hope if anything this shows up football for what it has become, a bloated, self interested infestation of mindless idiots. The difference with those is that those events never got started. If Wimbledon was called off in final week and a wildcard pick got to the final there would be more pressure to finish the competition. Or if Lee Westwood had a 7 shot lead going into last day of the open then there would be that back story. But thats the issue. You need to take emotions out of the decision making.
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Post by kenglowhite on Apr 2, 2020 9:41:13 GMT
I wonder OM if you are going too far into the niceties of pleasing the very people we have been castigating on this thread. As 63 says many sports have come to the right conclusion without pussyfooting around who won't get what they so-called deserve. Has it occurred to any of us that Liverpool are where they are because they have paid out £43M to agents in the last year, thus encouraging the very hangers-on we all feel are taking fans' money out of the game. I wonder, now we are out of Europe, does the Bosman Ruling need to stay. It is on the back of that in my opinion that started to lead football to the dogs now shown up by this virus and the indecision of football's "leaders". It has become necessary to use form and statistics to guess school examination results, but why transfer that technique to our national game?
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