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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 4, 2023 23:07:44 GMT
west brom v hull. clanger at 1.50. punished this time. thought the striker was gonna nick it straight off the keeper as he was pushing his luck, being closed right down on. slick turn and finish from the west brom striker. they then nearly get punished again at 3.46 BSA was talking about Rosenior liking to do this at Hull, in his tippy tappy podcast. i don't know how they get the jobs. fails at Derby, so gets a job in a higher lge at Hull...with a decent budget too. got decent players like Twine etc. so they will probably do ok. but might well struggle to go up. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67247381Roseniors comments after the game : It's always horrible, especially when you lose a game in the manner that we did. We gift-wrapped the game to them.
"For 90% of the game we were the better team but in the 10% where we switch off and make errors and don't do professional things, that's what won them the game.
"We've gone toe to toe with a very good team, dominated certain areas but gifted goals at crucial times.
"(Seri) has made a mistake and will hold his hands up and I will hold my hands up because I'm asking the players to play that way - I believe in it.[/b] in the comments under the BBC article, a lot of Baggies fans disagreed with the dominated line.... e.g. Why do some managers have to big things up quite so much? Hull played well, were very much in the game at half time and tried to play good football despite difficult conditions BUT they certainly did not 'dominate' the match at any stage and were not the better team at any point let alone for '90% of the game'. The Tigers have a promising side but it would seem a delusional manager. Pity.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 5, 2023 16:18:48 GMT
another near miss. Brum v Ipswich. clanger at 5.22 gets away with it but another shocker. he could play it to his winger. he's not even being pressed. how about just carrying the ball forward and that'll commit those closing you down, and space will open up. of course they are probably not capable of that, which might indicate you shouldn't be trying to do this. cringe.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 5, 2023 16:23:26 GMT
Leicester v Leeds from y/day. another near miss. another very optimistic pass from a keeper. who is he even aiming that one to ? incident straight away at 0.42.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 6, 2023 23:31:10 GMT
Spurs v Chelsea. clanger at 1.23 very optimistic pass again. driving a ball that far along the ground from deep. leads to a disallowed goal. but amidst the panic it created, pen conceded away. some crazy high offsides later in the game. Spurs having a right meltdown. 2 sent off. 2 or 3 gone off injured. 3 goals conceded with crazy high offsides. hardly a player in their own half. when we know Chelsea struggle with low blocks..like vs Brentford & Forest. Sterling not great at beating people with trickery, but more than capable on the break using pace. 1st highline breached at 2.45. then at 3.02 . again at 3.25.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 11, 2023 20:07:12 GMT
not seen many so far in the PL yet, but still plenty of time. in the meantime, try this one from Bayern Munich. 2 more Kane goals. & clanger at 3.18 nearly handing the game to very lowly opposition. 2-0 up. just conceded one, then go and do that at 70 min mark.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 12, 2023 12:16:43 GMT
absolute shocker this one. clanger starts at 3.09. Orient vs our promotion rivals Oxford, from yesterday. has the Orient keeper been checked for concussion or something ...he must have DOUBLE VISION !?! . His pass out goes exactly where it always looked like it was going..straight to the Oxford player. gets duly punished thankfully. sometimes you see these and the picture does change... the "presser" will appear from nowhere, make a run and intercept a pass. with this one, nothing changes. I don't know whether he intended lifting the clearance or what. ??
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 12, 2023 16:00:06 GMT
yet another. R Madrid v Valencia..from yesterday. 4.45 clanger. why do they always go so central. so risky there. 1 error. and 1 player alone can cause danger and score. at least if you lose it in a full back area fairly wide, they might need a cross or pass which may go wrong or give you time to get players back. didn't matter in this example as already 3-0 down.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 16, 2023 11:50:06 GMT
some really good sense talked by all in this vid. Hoddle praises City's style but then says it's not for everyone. too much blind copying. best bit starts at 3.06
Gabby mentions his experiences with Paul Lambert trying this at Villa after PL had been out to Bayern to watch them train when Pep was there. started off his managerial career well....2 consecutive promotions for Norwich . he looks like he's the new big thing..the miracle worker. but so much easier to win in Lge 1 when you're with a good sized club like Norwich. the big fish in the small pond. much tougher higher up.
not quite the hot property with his 13% win % at Stoke. last managed Ipswich around start of 2021.
back to the vid ,Hoddle mentions even lge 1 & 2 are passing out etc. all pretty much agree. it's being overdone. time and a place for it. now & again is ok. not every time. etc
it's not Tony Pulis talking ,not Gary Megson. not some dinosaur as the media would portray. it's Glenn Hoddle. known for good football. played football from the back as a sweeper himself, player manager of Swindon and Chelsea. influenced into coaching by playing under Wenger at Monaco.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 21, 2023 11:14:06 GMT
one horrible gaffe and some absolutely woeful play in this Swansea v Wrexham womens game. gaffe starts at 1.10. keystone cops attacking and defending. look at that awful 1st touch. yet still insist on playing out !?! gotta conform though. 1st Swansea goal at 2.15 . top keeping . sadly these are not one offs. don't know what happened at 2.42- another bad 1st touch ?? next goal at 3.20. some of the worst defending i've ever seen. even Zat wouldn't be that bad . didn't watch the England game in full, briefly skimmed thru my recording of it... too dull to waste much time on. saw some Maguire clangers at HT . one of them led to a stronger pen claim than the one that got given. honestly you wonder about any Managers influence on a team.... like OM has said about Solskjaer getting to 2nd and trophy chances with Utd. don't forget Tony Barton won the european cup with Villa. Di matteo won the champions lge with Chelsea. Avram Grant reached a champions lge final with Chelsea. Ranieri wins Leicester the PL....but gets binned fairly soon after.... was the success really down to key players like Kante, Vardy, Mahrez . of course it is. and various no marks have won the WC despite having no club record of success..... Jogi Loew with Germany (2014). this latest Argie guy. france 98 with Jacquet. ( to be fair Jacquet had won French lge's as Mgr, but was seriously out of favour pre-1998 WC ) Domenech got France to 2006 final. utter loon , he was picking on star signs and rubbish like that, although i heard by the end the players had formed their own mini committee , and said ignore him, we'll do our own stuff. i'm not sacrificng the chance of a medal & WC win just to spite him & take him down. etc
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Post by andyl on Nov 21, 2023 14:30:17 GMT
An example ( two actually) occurred in the WSL Manchester derby. The most glaring came after Maya Le Tissier hit a short back pass after a throw out. Mary Earp's comes out too slowly, kicks it straight at Bunny Shaw and the innocent ball thinks 'sod this' and rebounds straight back into goal- effectively ending the contest.
The point I have to add is that when you might expect angry managerial tirades or head in hand almost suicidal remorse or an argument keeper to defender- there's none of it. Just a sheepish glance and camaraderie-a just one of those things moment when we play the right way.
Ok in general a bit less animosity and bile as seen in WSL is no bad thing in itself ( Evatt to note). But it was a humongous clanger.
I'm old enough to remember the Gary Sprake cup final og , the Bonetti dive over a modest shot in 1970 world cup, the pillory which wrecked Jim Leighton when he lost form, Scott Carson's clanger v Croatia? All of these wrecked or put in question club careers.
But now keepers are encouraged to risk these clangers all the time. Norman Hunter missed a tackle in Poland. John Stones gives chances all the time. Yet is celebrated?
Why? The answer is in part an antidote to defensive blocks and an incitement to over commitment and fast transition. Most Bolton attacks arise when opposition's push on, get outnumbered and we escape flanks or Sheehan, Thomason and Santos hit long balls over the pushed up defenders.
Do the goals and attacks outweigh the giveaways? We'd need a parallel thread to assess the balance?
I'm certainly in favour of quick releases, ball play from the back after the years of long kicks and lost possession when second ball progression was rare.
Whatever I think of IE or his behaviour the football and player behaviour is immeasurably better than the Parkinson era and the team has a definite way of playing.
But it's just so nerve wracking and frustrating to see goals needlessly given away. Surely late in a game safety is preferable.
Or maybe my nerves are the problem..Football has fashions. All said did Mary Earp's sleep last Sunday night? I wouldn't have!
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 21, 2023 16:34:31 GMT
thanks for those 2 examples , Andy. i'd not seen those . i had thought previously that the Womens game must be a rich source for these. seem to remember seeing several when this thread was just an idea, not a reality. young coaches pushing this nonsense on people who simply don't have the skills to do it.
1st clanger at 1.41.
next at 2.09 that Andy describes above.
it's the conforming and copying that gets me. remember world cup 1990. almost every team suddenly started playing 352 with a sweeper. West germany did. argies did. both in the final. even england did. Butcher or Mark wright as sweeper. Brazil too. even Italy too, even though AC milan were ripping it up at club level with a back 4, with the same key players like Baresi and Maldini etc.
another bit of tactical conformity that teams were quite happy to kill themselves with was 442 in the early/ mid 1990's..when all British teams did that. remember when Wenger got Bergkamp in, and Fergie got Cantona in. all they did was sit between the lines, and the tactical rigidity meant they were left unmarked. These 2 teams were pretty poor in Europe as the opponents didn't let them have this space, even against just modest Euro teams, rather than the actual giants who anyone could lose to at any point.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Nov 21, 2023 17:17:13 GMT
more about the conformity here from BSA. BEST BIT from 4.30. talks about Brentford beating Man city by NOT conforming. love that line from Sam.. "Man city love you doing it" ( i.e playing out from the back ). and he's quite right. they are literally scamming you into thinking you're doing the right thing. he sees Brentford doing to them, exactly what he did to Arsenal back in his pomp. but of course.... these tactics don't work anymore. really ? i must have just imagined it. the sinister thing is how the Media just back the big club view. those great champions of equality, inclusion & democracy suddenly switch to backing the rich powerful clubs. in a similar vein, last MOTD the time given to promoted clubs was unbeleivably low. seriously i'd be surprised if punditry time went above 2 mins for the 3 of them. Burnley and sheff utd barely got a word. where's the balance. as a smaller club up there, you often don't expect 50/50, but these often don't even get 80/20. it's a disgrace and i don't hear enough complaint about this. Brentford actually did the double over Man city last season. as well as the famous away victory..posted earlier on this thread, they beat them 1-0 at home, to secure a top half finish last season...the 1st time they'd EVER achieved that in the top flight ( not just PL ). www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65661820
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Post by andyl on Nov 22, 2023 10:29:33 GMT
I won't climb into the inclusion and rich club myopia. Wrote a lot about that fifteen years ago plus and not I think proved wrong. Then I predicted the collapse of a big club thinking Man Utd. May still come to pass. Alas nearly did and may yet re bwfc. I'm not convinced of financial stability. Promotion will carry great risk.
Anyway,the point I'd add to this would be to observe that the internet, satellite technology, streaming have all transformed tactics. Your analysis is excellent rtf and for every amateur rtf clubs employ full time staff, commonly not as acute as yourself. So the data leads to new tactics eg the current version of tiki taka.Two upfront are again commonplace to press not attack. It's not so long since teams went with one upfront eg Ngog for us. Big Sam capitalised earlier than most.
We had Charles Hughes in the 80s Leeds/ Chapman Blackburn in early 90s . You are right re Cantona/ Bergkamp. Sheringham played to nearly 40 in this ' intelligent' stereotype.
I suppose the IT point part illustrates why Total football took so long to infiltrate European football? Why we didn't see more Beckenbauer style sweepers until Hoddle at Swindon and sometimes Gullit. There was no medium of instant mass dissemination?
Now it all accelerates and poor footballers attempt to fit the science- which is maybe why we see so many errors.
I suppose the real question now on the horizon is ' how will AI transform football tactics. Already chatgpt can turn a piece of prose to a reading level below in seconds. Imagine a world where prose, imagery, analysis and voice instructions were simplified to each player's intelligence level. Imagine if AI showed that a team attacking on the left was more successful than right or that a move with six one touch passes was more successful than a team averaging kept possession at 60% and say thirty consecutive passes. Or?
Maybe future Big Sams will let AI design tactics, pick teams, train players, plan recuperation, avoid hamstring injuries.
If that seems absurd, my point is that the human scissors and paste science, fuelled by hitherto unimaginable levels of detailed analysis has led to the current obsession so well portrayed on this thread but where will it end? We are on a slippery slope perhaps as daunting as fifteen years ago the potential for big money, globalised ownership and self interest threatened community football?
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Post by andyl on Nov 22, 2023 11:03:50 GMT
And just for fun. here's the same post pushed through Chat GPT with same reading age
The landscape of football has undergone significant changes over the years, with predictions made in the past still holding relevance today. An important factor influencing the game is the impact of technology—internet, satellite, and streaming services have transformed tactics. Your insightful analysis highlights how data-driven approaches, like the current version of tiki-taka, have become commonplace. The prevalence of two upfront players for pressing rather than attacking reflects a shift in strategies, contrasting with earlier times. Historical figures such as Charles Hughes in the 80s and managers like Big Sam capitalized on tactical innovations ahead of their time. The delay in the infiltration of Total Football into European football is attributed to the lack of a medium for instant mass dissemination. The accelerating pace of information, coupled with the attempt of footballers to integrate scientific knowledge, may explain the increase in errors. Looking ahead, the question arises: how will AI transform football tactics? The ability of AI, like ChatGPT, to quickly simplify and adapt information suggests a future where AI tailors strategies, player instructions, and training regimens to individual intelligence levels. The idea of AI designing tactics, selecting teams, training players, and managing recovery processes may sound far-fetched, but it prompts us to consider the potential evolution of football management. The current emphasis on detailed analysis and data-driven decision-making may lead to a future where AI plays a more prominent role in shaping the game. The parallels drawn with the challenges faced fifteen years ago, such as the threat of big money, global ownership, and self-interest, highlight the ongoing transformation and potential challenges in the world of football.
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Post by andyl on Nov 22, 2023 11:09:13 GMT
And here's the same post translated by Chat GPT to the level that an average eleven year old might understand. Notice that the key point of the thread- daft lost possession is now lost. This brings optimism that AI will never beat a human bit it also illustrates perhaps how footballers might hear something and then mess it up
'Football has changed a lot, and we still worry about money in the game, especially when teams go up a league. Think of it like moving to a harder level in a video game.
Technology, like the internet and streaming, changed how teams play. Now, it's common to use data (like stats) to decide tactics, like the cool tiki-taka style. Teams often have two players near the goal to press the other team, not just one player attacking, like before.
In the past, smart coaches like Charles Hughes and Big Sam caught onto new tactics fast. It took time for cool styles like Total Football to spread because sharing info wasn't quick.
Today, tech is speeding everything up. We're trying to use science more in football, but sometimes, it makes mistakes. In the future, people wonder how smart machines (like ChatGPT) will change football tactics. These machines can quickly simplify information. In the future, they might help with game plans, picking teams, and even training players based on their skills.
It might sound strange, but it makes us think about where football is going. Looking at stats and info is a big deal now, and in the future, smart machines might be even more important. The challenges we had fifteen years ago, like lots of money, teams owned by people from different countries, and people looking out for themselves, still matter as football keeps changing.
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