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Post by thegrud1 on Mar 15, 2022 13:25:25 GMT
..go back over the last 2 seasons and see how many goals we have conceded from a cross to the far post....its a massive problem,,,sort it out and we defend a lot better,,,not blaming any player its a team problem we dont defend far post crosses
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Post by andyl on Mar 15, 2022 21:19:04 GMT
I seem to have in part brought out a debate that should be had about Santos and indeed Evatt's hyperbolic homage for me serves only to underline how we must all reserve judgement re his own expertise and analytical skill. Frankly if Chris Markham does his job even half as well as rtf does for us, it should be screamingly obvious what the issues are.
Santos is by far the worst centre half aerially I have seen in 60n years. He simply cannot head a ball properly or time his jumps. He's not just iffy as were say Mills and Ream or say Kernaghan who always backed off off in 2004. Zat Knight is much maligned but he was a whole lot better at getting his head on a ball than Santos is and that is Santos' near strength. Zat could never direct a header and the gap he left between himself and Cahill invited many a forward through. Santos just stands in space, marks no-one and if he gets a head to anything it's pot luck whether it skims off backwards, loops into the air. He is terrible.
He stands no comparison with Lydiate, Winstanley or Came- all so much better and Lydiate hardly played. He's even worse than the Polish centre half who played a couple of games, Fojut. Meite was perhaps the most recent comparator. Even Cid was better. Once we start to make comparison with Ngotty, Jaidi, Bergsson, and best of all Paul Jones and Allardyce anyone can surely see how rubbish he is. Rtf anlyses a couple of games. There were at least ten instances v Plymouth even his best moment a blocked clearance at the near post came after letting his men drift free.
And returning to the aerial point his feebleness on set pieces his embarrassing. We leave Fossey at the back one to one. He's the best jumper and header we have save possibly now for Bodvarson, Charles and surprisingly Kachunga ( he's in some ways the best of all at kncoks ons). Bakayoko is patchy but miles better Santos. If Santos comes up for corners as he always does he gets in the way. He'd be better covering breakaways and letting Fossey compete.
In defence Santos isn't anywhere near as good defending set pieces as Kevin Davies was. Even Delfouneso was better aerially in defence Is Santos good at anything. Yes. His one to one recovery play after mistakes is often excellent. His ball control is excellent when he moves forward. He moves forward powerfully at times and he can sweep a good long pass on occasion. None of these attributes qualify him for centre half excellence- in another role? Doubtful?
His blocking is inconsistent. Lots of examples of half turning away when he should stay tight and some goals have ensued form this failing too
His worst attribute is his is slowness of the mark when forwards run off him. I think walking football teams will boast players who are more responsive.
Yes I agree with ws63. If you get him supported properly with partners who do his basics he is OK. Gilks pulled his strings well last year. But at what cost to the overall cohesion of the team?
Can he improve? I seriously doubt it myself whereas I think Johnston has much more to offer if it's of potential we speak. Can he bully some opponents- yes at times risking fouls and penalties. But he can also be bullied- totally outclassed by Rotherham, Stockport who have big strong traditional forwards who can head a ball.
Sell him on asap!
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Post by riochforthereebok on Mar 15, 2022 21:41:09 GMT
Flippin eck
Twice I say Twice
It took us 95 minutes to salvage a point Twice Against Morecambe Twice
Whereas Shrewsbury have hammered them for 5 in the first 70 minutes
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Post by riochforthereebok on Mar 15, 2022 22:44:52 GMT
And Wigan have just done Crewe over Can we?
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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 16, 2022 11:30:15 GMT
I seem to have in part brought out a debate that should be had about Santos and indeed Evatt's hyperbolic homage for me serves only to underline how we must all reserve judgement re his own expertise and analytical skill. Frankly if Chris Markham does his job even half as well as rtf does for us, it should be screamingly obvious what the issues are. Santos is by far the worst centre half aerially I have seen in 60n years. He simply cannot head a ball properly or time his jumps. He's not just iffy as were say Mills and Ream or say Kernaghan who always backed off off in 2004. Zat Knight is much maligned but he was a whole lot better at getting his head on a ball than Santos is and that is Santos' near strength. Zat could never direct a header and the gap he left between himself and Cahill invited many a forward through. Santos just stands in space, marks no-one and if he gets a head to anything it's pot luck whether it skims off backwards, loops into the air. He is terrible. He stands no comparison with Lydiate, Winstanley or Came- all so much better and Lydiate hardly played. He's even worse than the Polish centre half who played a couple of games, Fojut. Meite was perhaps the most recent comparator. Even Cid was better. Once we start to make comparison with Ngotty, Jaidi, Bergsson, and best of all Paul Jones and Allardyce anyone can surely see how rubbish he is. Rtf anlyses a couple of games. There were at least ten instances v Plymouth even his best moment a blocked clearance at the near post came after letting his men drift free. And returning to the aerial point his feebleness on set pieces his embarrassing. We leave Fossey at the back one to one. He's the best jumper and header we have save possibly now for Bodvarson, Charles and surprisingly Kachunga ( he's in some ways the best of all at kncoks ons). Bakayoko is patchy but miles better Santos. If Santos comes up for corners as he always does he gets in the way. He'd be better covering breakaways and letting Fossey compete. In defence Santos isn't anywhere near as good defending set pieces as Kevin Davies was. Even Delfouneso was better aerially in defence Is Santos good at anything. Yes. His one to one recovery play after mistakes is often excellent. His ball control is excellent when he moves forward. He moves forward powerfully at times and he can sweep a good long pass on occasion. None of these attributes qualify him for centre half excellence- in another role? Doubtful? His blocking is inconsistent. Lots of examples of half turning away when he should stay tight and some goals have ensued form this failing too His worst attribute is his is slowness of the mark when forwards run off him. I think walking football teams will boast players who are more responsive. Yes I agree with ws63. If you get him supported properly with partners who do his basics he is OK. Gilks pulled his strings well last year. But at what cost to the overall cohesion of the team? Can he improve? I seriously doubt it myself whereas I think Johnston has much more to offer if it's of potential we speak. Can he bully some opponents- yes at times risking fouls and penalties. But he can also be bullied- totally outclassed by Rotherham, Stockport who have big strong traditional forwards who can head a ball. Sell him on asap! Whoa, I take it you really don’t rate Rico Andy? 🥴 I can’t deny some of your points other than to say that I think he cops for a lot of the errors from his colleagues. Similarly, you couldn’t say he’s the best header of a ball we’ve ever had and that’s at both ends but I don’t think defensively he’s quite as bad as you make him out. He’s a big guy so he’s probably not going to be the most fleet of foot but he does recover well as you say. Grud is right though when he points out how many goals we’ve conceded at the back post, another that cost us against Plymouth. That’s not Rico’s fault. He’s in the centre and to be fair does win most headers there. It’s once again his colleagues letting him down. Clearly we all have opinions on players and on Rico I’m much more in the Evatt camp than you are as I believe that Rico has huge potential to improve where he’s weak. I sincerely hope he stays and extends his contract but IE must for me find him a strong partner because neither Aimson or Johnson can do it. I could see Johnson retained in a back 3 as he’s young enough to learn and improve but Santos alone there is a weakness for us. Similarly in midfield, we lack a real tackler and ball winner to stop those opponents running through to confront the defence. MJ was ok last season but I wonder if L1 is just a step too far? All in all we’re still a work in progress and I’m sure Evatt sees the weaknesses as much or more than we do and I trust him to put it right over the summer.
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Post by kenglowhite on Mar 16, 2022 16:53:16 GMT
Short of the reincarnation of a young Gudni or Bruno I can't see what the well-respected pundit andyl supported by rtf is hoping for. We Santos supporters are aware of what he has done for us and what more he might achieve with the sought after improvements. I think Whites 63 and I agree that just as Wanderers need overall improvement and rehabilitation through the ownership not every aspect of football can be as we would like it. Santos has been part of the process which is giving us hope, and while giving many spasms of trepidation he often comes good and promises a brighter future. Whites rightly says Santos is often left holding a baby left by other members of the side, and often pulls off a rescue (isn't that typical of any team, be it sport or business?). I am concerned that too much blame is being attached to the said Rico, and not enough to other areas, and particularly to defensive midfield, the too easy concession of throw-ins and corners, and the absence of key players such as Jones, Lee, and Isgrove - do we really think him ripe for disposal when he has been really missed? After a bright start I don't see Fossey as an exact replacement for him on the right wing, to say nothing of a suggestion that the almost untried Amaechi is right for the sack. To conclude I promote just a facetious thought. Does Evatt in fact agree with the anti-Santos people, and do his laudations suggest he is really trying to sell him for as high a price as possible?
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Post by andyl on Mar 16, 2022 17:44:53 GMT
We are all entitled to our opinions. I, for my part react and maybe overreact to the constant praise and promotion of Santos by our manager and it's just not accurate. At the key skills of heading a ball and marking men , as does rtf, I could if I had the time bring out a great many instances of both deficiencies and many have led to goals or chances. Plymouth is the most recent- they hardly threatened us but just look at that first half moment where Johnson is rounded, a cross comes in from the wing and the forward has left Santos for dead and misses an easy tap in. Or the second half moment where he takes on an unopposed header in that central area and it balloons upwards and backwards off his head leaving Trafford to wade through opponents and just about gather it. Or when he misheads a right wing cross, it goes to the other corner, he lopes after it, tries to pull it back, keeps it in play and their opponent makes offs with it.
Or v Morecambe when he loses his man , hares after him and scythes him down for the most obvious penalty, so obvious indeed that even Evatt acknowledges it!!!! Or at the other end when offered second half goalscoring opportunity on the East side far post he 'jumps' in the manner of Zebedee heading a balloon, misses it and the ball runs to safety behind his back---and this was an easier chance than the one Kachunga was to hit the post with v Plymouth--that we all thought was a bad miss, though actually he did well, directed the header and was really unlucky whereas Santos v Morecambe went more or less unnoticed because we are all so attuned to how useless he is in the air and had minimal expectations
Yes I could pick good recoveries and one block and sometimes a good sweeping crossfield ball, although not Saturday when the attempt landed serval rows back in the West Stand.
I have to say that even though I have myself nodded to it at times, the argument that Santos could be bolstered up with a better defensive midfield or a better partner is a tad disingenuous against Evatt's elevation of him to pedestal status. Surely he should take the pressure of everyone else. At set pieces have you ever known one of our main centre halves to take up position zonally and mark no-one. Bad tactics or just an implicit admission that Santos cannot mark men.
It's also the wrong way to look at it , isn't it, ie to identify weakness in those around or in front. To my mind if we keep clean sheets or minimise attacks, given the liability of Santos the others have played amazingly well and exceeded themselves. Or in the case of Lee especially he's just a good versatile player. If it's about development we 'd be better off praising the excellent Morley who has every chance of getting to Lee levels quite quickly and if you look closely when they play together is actually confident enough to direct Lee. Have you ever seen Santos direct anybody? Compare him to Jones. Let's speak of him as the best right sided defender/wing back in the league. There the stats. do add up!
Now if we did have a rujuvenated Gudni or Bruno to call on---how many times over their whole time with us did they make even the mistakes that Santos made this last week let alone in his really bad games. Or Taggart, Fairlclough, Coleman. I'm pressed to remember any so rare were they.
Does anyone seriously think that if Big Sam were our manager now he'd pick Santos. I think back to his inspired acquisition mid season of Paul Ritchie, who apart from being sent off in his first away game shored up our defence immediately. Think back also the quick fate of Diawara under Sam and how in addition to Hierro and Campo he also moved Abdoulaye Faye out of defence--- and he was a zillion times better than Santos but not in role good enough for Sam. I could go on
I just want basic managerial honesty or silence and discreet training ground improvement work. Evatt's obsequious praise is not I think for a transfer fee- most managers are not so gullible and do their due diligence- this constant eulogy of Santos really galls- against it for me 'the King is in the altogether but altogether'
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Post by OohMac on Mar 17, 2022 18:26:28 GMT
One last one on Santos. Truly good centre backs will stand the test of time. But you can get away with just being very very basic and not getting too much flack just by getting your head on them. Like a Matt Mills.
Bet Matt Mills player ratings were 7,7,6,7,7,6,7 and maybe 8 if grabbed a goal. Santos is 9,4,8,3,10 if he ever grabbed one. Frustrating and encouraging in equal measures.
Not surplus to requirements but replaceable and we could profit and have a more consistent player albeit without the potential
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Post by OohMac on Mar 17, 2022 20:00:20 GMT
Didnt even come here to talk about Santos. Came because once again I find the post comments of our manager really, really odd.
"Is it impossible? Well if you break that word into two it makes I'm Possible!"
Direct quote. I mean David Brent couldnt write that. Even Scientologist would say thats cringeworthy. It doesnt even make sense. Im doesnt mean I am. I'm does. And impossible isnt spelt I'mpossible. So its just another bit of nonsense words that he has got from a nonsense book.
More practically he said of Plymouth "Yeah they had possession and that threw us but we felt that they didnt do anything with that possession, mainly had it at the back without cutting through us or creating anything...." Are you serious Ian? Pot kettle black. That sums up you and your ideology to a tee. I wish that someone had a mirror to put in Evatts face as he said those words.
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Post by chip on Mar 18, 2022 10:58:51 GMT
It's always good to see a debate about our team without all the abuse that you get on the B.E.N. site. On Santos what do people think about maybe playing Santos in the Campo role ? Stay safe one and all COYWM
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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 18, 2022 11:29:55 GMT
It's always good to see a debate about our team without all the abuse that you get on the B.E.N. site. On Santos what do people think about maybe playing Santos in the Campo role ? Stay safe one and all COYWM I’ve voiced exactly that opinion myself before chip because I think he’d be better playing that role than as an out and out defender but I don’t believe there’s any chance of Evatt doing it. One thing I do share with Andy is the frustration with Evatt constantly bulling Rico up. He may well be doing it to enhance his value, I certainly wouldn’t doubt the possibility because we all know that it’s the clubs intentions to profit from transfers in future and indeed that may also be why he made him captain. I also agree with Andy on that too in that I never see Rico directing or rallying players. Time will tell but for the avoidance of doubt, I do rate Santos’ potential, despite his shortcomings but would I be concerned if he left for a good fee? Not at all as long as his replacement wasn’t another unproven or novice player. Personally I hope he stays and improves here, alongside a new partner in the summer but at the end of the days it’s Evatt’s choice to want to keep him albeit Santos’ if he wants to stay?
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