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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 13, 2022 17:20:09 GMT
I see that Whites63 has listed Williams and Both Johnston and Aimson for release at season end, and feel his view is very perceptive. Neither of the latter two has seemed to be an adequate replacement for last season's Baptiste, and in turn their weaknesses must subscribe to the defects in Santos's performances, while stressing that you cannot expect any one player ever to go through complete matches flawlessly, especially as this is the Third Division and that Santos, like many of our players is trying to build a career as part of a successful well-supported BWFC. In Williams' case I would like to see Ian Evatt acknowledge the fact that he is a defensive midfielder and that his job is to cover the back three or four, especially in cases of opponents' breaks with most of our team upfield in attacking positions. My feeling is Kenglo, that if we are to progress next year, we won’t do it with the squad we have now and I think it’s pretty clear to everyone where the main problems lie. To me, the only two defenders we have who are both capable of attack and defend are Jones and Santos. Even Declan John who is great going forward is seriously limited as a defender and I can see why Swansea let him go and neither Johnson nor Aimson are big enough or strong enough at this level, let alone the one higher. Not only do they not defend their own box, they present no threat in the oppositions either. Johnson may be able to take up a midfield role but he’s never a centre half for me and both he and Aimson leave Santos exposed, causing many of his problems. With the wealth of quality midfield players we have in Lee, Morley, Dempsey, Thomason and Sheehan when fit, plus the likes of Dapo, Isgrove and MJ, we should have enough to at last challenge next year, though for me MJ offer slows the game down too much going sideways instead of forward and personally I’d replace him. Up top, Charles and Bod look a good pairing and again supported by Dapo are good enough but Baka and Kachunga for me are backups at best and neither should be starting so I’d look to replace both and bring in one good quality striker, possibly Stockton if Morecambe do go down as seems likely. My thinking is that if we seriously want to push for automatic, we have to be better than all the others and frankly with the current squad and in key positions, we’re just not. Finally on Evatt, a young manager still learning the job. He’s improving but I’d just like to see a little more humility and acceptance that however clever he thinks he is, most experienced managers are actually cleverer. Good managers play their best eleven all the time, don’t tinker and change quoting freshness and tiredness as he stupidly did leaving Bod out on Tuesday in place of Baka, when Bod must have been well fired up for the game having scored the previous Saturday. All a learning process so let’s just hope IE isn’t too proud to realise that because next year the expectation is promotion, including his “friend” Sharon’s!! 😉
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Post by andyl on Mar 13, 2022 19:39:47 GMT
My list of dispensables would be confined
Dixon Santos Tutte Amaechi Aimson Isgrove
We need a good experienced commanding keeper.
Tutte and Isgrove will both struggle to stay fit
Aimson though adequate aerially isn't quick enough and is poor going forward.
Amaechi on loan has had his chance
Santos isn't up to it. I can just about see that his recovery play could impress, even close control and forward movement but quite how you can argue he is an attacking force, ws63, beats me. He's on my list because he can't mark and can't head a ball- critical deficiencies in a central defender I would have thought. He has been at fault for well over 20 goals against and gives away chance upon chance- Trafford bailed him out twice on Sat
I think Johnston is a good blocker and moves well out of defence. He actually does contribute in attack. Goal v Lincoln. He looked good in left midfield and is ok aerially but not yet physical enough for a centre back Gordon too showed promise and skill. I think he will develop.
Baka deserves his cameos. But I agree Bodvarson should always start ahead of him unless we are playing one upfront- which might have been a good firdt half call on Sat with no Lee Dempsey Sheehan on hand. Thomasson might have offered more
I think Williams is carrying injury but also agree that he is a midfield stopper not the first port of call fpr possession and creation. In his natural role he should stay.
One final point re Sat. I thought the referee was as good as Tuesday's was bad. All very well for Evatt to bleat about timewasting when at the back we take 15 mins plus out of every game judt passing to amd fro aimlessly. Also didn't Aimson take a couple of mins out kneeling and complaining as if injured right at the end with no trainer?
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Post by OohMac on Mar 13, 2022 20:21:03 GMT
Even though it should be more evolution not revolution, surely its not good to overhaul the squad every July and January. I do think when you lose a couple of players and everthing goes to pot it clearly shows we dont have strength in depth and we do need to lose the deadwood. No sentiments. Just two real candidates per position.
So i'd lose Dixon, Aimson, Johnson, Gordon, Tutte, Isgrove, Kachunga, Baptiste, Delfouenso, Darcy.
With Amaechi not being renewed.
So guess we need Traford return plus a GK, 3x CB, Fossey return plus RWB, LWB, DM, RW.
Also if we could find another striker like an Alfie May or Stockton then we could lose Baka too.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Mar 13, 2022 21:05:29 GMT
My list of dispensables would be confined Dixon Santos Tutte Amaechi Aimson Isgrove We need a good experienced commanding keeper. Tutte and Isgrove will both struggle to stay fit Aimson though adequate aerially isn't quick enough and is poor going forward. Amaechi on loan has had his chance Santos isn't up to it. I can just about see that his recovery play could impress, even close control and forward movement but quite how you can argue he is an attacking force, ws63, beats me. He's on my list because he can't mark and can't head a ball- critical deficiencies in a central defender I would have thought. He has been at fault for well over 20 goals against and gives away chance upon chance- Trafford bailed him out twice on Sat I think Johnston is a good blocker and moves well out of defence. He actually does contribute in attack. Goal v Lincoln. He looked good in left midfield and is ok aerially but not yet physical enough for a centre back Gordon too showed promise and skill. I think he will develop. Baka deserves his cameos. But I agree Bodvarson should always start ahead of him unless we are playing one upfront- which might have been a good firdt half call on Sat with no Lee Dempsey Sheehan on hand. Thomasson might have offered more I think Williams is carrying injury but also agree that he is a midfield stopper not the first port of call fpr possession and creation. In his natural role he should stay. One final point re Sat. I thought the referee was as good as Tuesday's was bad. All very well for Evatt to bleat about timewasting when at the back we take 15 mins plus out of every game judt passing to amd fro aimlessly. Also didn't Aimson take a couple of mins out kneeling and complaining as if injured right at the end with no trainer? very good stuff as usual Andy. agree with most of that. I think Whites is possibly referring to Santos' dribbling and long & short passing skills . i agree these are his best aspects. reminds me so much of Zat with with his defending skills (& that's not a compliment !). at least he's better than ZK as he never had the passing and dribbling skills, but he shares Zat's inability to be any useful attacking weapon from corners and set pieces etc. part of RS's troubles are his attacking instincts. to gamble. take risks. etc like I said midweek on the Morecambe thread, top defenders are pessimists. they expect things to go wrong, and are in the correct position to cover it, if it does. we've seen it all before with David Luiz. on his rare days when he puts it all together...looks amazing, but at individual fault (wholly or partially) for so many goals. do think it's a bit funny those who defend Santos' defending. GJ and WA to blame ??...were they around last year vs Port vale or Tranmere or Leyton Orient or Barrow (away) or Carlisle or any other of the numerous RS disaster zones. caught holding a smoking gun enough times in Lge 2 for me to tell he would not find it easy to step up to Lge 1. would struggle still further in the Championship. IE completely obsessed with him..talks about bringing him along all the way to the PL, so i'd be very surprised to see him leave. maybe you could get away with 2 good defenders next to him, to cover up his weaknesses, but trouble is , if you are going to have a very possession based style and build from the back, those other defenders have to be able to pass pretty well too. life's all about trade-offs..which do you prioritise..defending or attacking/possession or pay top dollar for someone who can do both. the likes of BSA or Parky prioritise defenders who can defend....Beevers, Wheater etc . Bsa tried Campo at the back & instantly thought... NOOOOOOOOOOO !!. and cleverly thought up a way to fit him in & gets his strengths without his weaknesses. totally agree on the time-wasting. the pointless possession is "self time-wasting" . I would mind less if we did this when we were in front, but frustratingly as like last season, we seem to do it at 0-0 or 1-0 down more than ever, but largely incapable of it, when it would come in handy. would disagree on Amaechi. may or may not be good enough. never been fit enough to have a sustained run to form any fair judgement for me.
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Post by andyl on Mar 14, 2022 8:24:00 GMT
You could add Hierro to that, rtf.
Maybe fair re Amaechi but I tbink he won't come through.
I'd have thought the Stockport and Wigan games sufficient to call time of death on Santos. And that Evatt idolises him is a problem.
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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 14, 2022 14:30:00 GMT
You’re right rtf, that’s exactly what I was referring to with Rico. Some of his midfield runs and long cross field passes are superb so apologies Andy if I didn’t make that clearer. I just think Rico gets a lot of stick for things he doesn’t do and often not the credit for things he does. I personally believe he’s carrying the burden of less than reliable partners in Aimson and Johnson and a good example of that was how much better he looked when Jones came back from injury. I’m not trying to make out he’s the bees knees because he’s not but in fairness he’s still relatively new to this level and for me is improving all the time and still has some way to go and that’s why I’d like to see Evatt sign a proper partner for him next season, assuming he’s still here, because I think he’d look so much better. On Trafford it wouldn’t surprise me if we signed him permanently in the summer because there’s no way he can now go back and play U23 football again at City, as he’s already pointed out and he’s nowhere near either a start or even bench place for them currently. Up front, I still would out Bakajoko and Kachunga, neither are good enough to become regular starters in my opinion and we can’t afford bench warmers rather than a true challenger for a striking spot. I’d replace the two with one challenger because we will get injuries, suspensions and loss of form and if we really do want to challenge then we have to have players who can do the job for 90 minutes,not just 20 minute cameos. Clearly Evatt has to talk all his players up to get a finish out of them but I’m sure he’s already more than aware of the weak areas and will be addressing them over the summer, then we’ll see who’s right. 🤔
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Post by kenglowhite on Mar 14, 2022 15:41:27 GMT
It's interesting that rtf singled out heavy losses last season when Santos was playing in the Phoenix Xl to justify criticism, as opposed to the side strengthened in the January '21 transfer window, and when the Santos-Baptiste axis was mostly sound, and that andyl picks out the games v Stockport and Wigan when the whole team was weak to condemn him this season. And now they seem to be coming back to a suggestion I made some time ago that maybe Santos could fill the Campo role currently not filled adequately at present in my opinion by Williams. Interestingly it is suggested that Williams may be carrying an injury, though I think his form dipped earlier than that collar bone problem. If he is carrying an injury, however, why is he still playing game after game? I see that Evatt is today calling Santos the best centre half in League One, and while I think Evatt, a very rugged defender (remember his duels with Madine) likes to see the difference between himself and Santos and overstates, I think we should respect how far Santos has come to date, and remember he is only playing in the third division of English football, and how much better he might be with a bigger, more rugged stopper beside him. I am judging him only as a defender and regret he is not up to Beevers and Wheater standards at the other end of the pitch.
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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 14, 2022 17:14:07 GMT
My feelings entirely Kenglo, we can all be selective in our views and opinions but like you I think some are being just a bit too hard on Rico. To say he couldn’t play at a higher level is disingenuous in my opinion because at a higher level he would be surrounded by better quality players in all positions and then I believe more attention would be given to his better capabilities. Clearly, attack is not one of them at the moment but we must remember, his primary role is to defend and anything we get goals wise is a bonus. As you say, when he had the steadying hand of Baps beside him last year and also the steadying and guiding of Gilks behind him, he benefitted from their experience but that’s not been the case this season with young inexperienced players around and behind him. Recruit a better and bigger CH in the summer and maybe even a more experienced keeper who dominates his area behind him, which neither Trafford nor Dixon do, and I’m sure you’ll see a far better Rico as he can concentrate on just his work not everyone else’s. Just my opinion but I think Rico has much more improvement in him but only if he gets better partners and that may be one reason he’s stalling on a new deal?
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Post by realtrottersforever on Mar 14, 2022 20:47:08 GMT
true, there is a team aspect Kenglo, but I simply don't see why the 1 to 1 battles are irrelevant, no matter what the rest of your team is doing. like any manager would say, you win your individual battles with your direct opponent and we win. Santos showed plenty of poor positional play. inability to read danger & general decision making issues. I just don't know why you construct a theory to defend him alone. why not just invent a theory to say Johnston is really good, but it's Aimson and Santos that's causing him to fail ?? GJ had a youth career with Liverpool, and has had spells with Feyenoord & Wigan, whereas RS started with dagenham and redbridge , had spells in the Conference south, & got relegated from Lge 2 with Barnet. he's 26 now. whereas GJ is only 23 and may well improve. this was one of our first ever viewing of him back in Sept 2020. I was eager to see him after IE had raved him up even then. lightning pace quotes etc . 0.36 a header straight to an area 2 opponents were in 0.42 showing that lightning pace to get back 0.50 lets his opponent get goal side. and can't catch up 1.17 we see his positive side. brilliant pass which plays a big part in creating our goal 1.46 RS right next to the eventual goalscorer but just lets him drift free. 1.52 Gethin Jones asks him what he was playing at !? & the 6-3 loss to port vale. 0.15 decent position but should he not be getting across the front post to clear that ? 0.47 gives a pen away 0.59 not totally on him..but gets sucked very high to then not win and end up in no mans land. 1.19 opponent bearing down on goal...he tracks the man wide, rather than deal with primary threat ,thereby vacating the centre of the box !? 1.29 beaten in the air from a cross. forget blaming Phoenix, only the month before (Nov 2020) that Evatt was saying he was the best centre back in the bottom 2 EFL div's. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bolton-championship-almeida-santos-evatt-19242410we have 3 away clean sheets, compared to 14 by Rotherham. not one of our 3 is against the top 15 sides. 5 away goals conceded by Rotherham or 28 by us. and IE comes out with yet more crazy quotes. I thought he was meant to be learning and winding his neck in more. I've heard some suggest it's only talking up a car you might want to sell, but he's been saying this stuff from Sept 2020 all through no matter what. I get you might be able talk someone up a bit ( emphasis on a bit ) and get them to play better, but just wildly raving up a guy at the heart of a bad away defence is like raving up a striker in a team not that's not continually not scoring & it doesn't sit well with me. it might send out signals to the other players that the manager is happy with just 3 away clean sheets & none against the top 15 sides. does he ever say any different himself ? if you say he's the best defender in the Div, does that not invite wage demands for the best defender in the Div or outside the Prem ? his agent has EVERY right to demand those wages now, and he certainly is not that player. I fail to see the sense in paying those out to him.
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Post by whitesince63 on Mar 14, 2022 21:16:09 GMT
I don’t agree with Evatt’s claim that Santos is the best CH in L1, he’s far from that but to be fair rtf, he’s still very much a work in progress for me. Of course you can pick out moments in any game where any player you like has failed to do what he should have, be it Doyle, Kachunga or Charles fluffing open goals or midfield players doing the equivalent but equally you can also pick out moments when players excelled, including Santos. It depends on your personal impression of the player I suppose and you clearly have little time for Santos and tend to see more negatives than I do. I see his weaknesses but I consider them areas to work on, as I do also with Dapo but crucially in both cases I feel they have the capability to improve, unlike say Johnson and Aimson, who I consider too slight and short to be successful Centre Halves. I accept you don’t need to be a giant to to be a CH but you do have to have certain attributes which I don’t believe they have. Obviously Evatt sees enough in Santos to make him captain and want to tie him to a longer contract and I agree with him. Whilst he’s not perfect, on his day he’s a rock for us but he can’t do it on his own, will make occasional mistakes but generally will do more good things than bad.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Mar 14, 2022 21:26:11 GMT
I don’t agree with Evatt’s claim that Santos is the best CH in L1, he’s far from that but to be fair rtf, he’s still very much a work in progress for me. Of course you can pick out moments in any game where any player you like has failed to do what he should have, be it Doyle, Kachunga or Charles fluffing open goals or midfield players doing the equivalent but equally you can are good things than bad. Hallelujah. we do agree on something then .
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Post by kenglowhite on Mar 14, 2022 22:45:34 GMT
The point is rtf you are blaming Santos for all our failures, yet you have not considered ridiculing Charles for our loss of points against Morecambe and Plymouth because of his missing gilt-edged chances. I am trying to say that no footballer is 100% infallible for 90 minutes of every match, and neither is Santos. Charles has my faith and so has Santos. Considering those around him in the Phoenix team, and latterly, he has more often rescued us from difficult situations than not, admittedly sometimes of his own making. I also feel it necessary to repeat he is a work in progress, and unfortunately there is no-one on the books at present who looks able to replace him or play satisfactorily alongside him, which probably puts further pressure on him and should encourage us to support him.
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Post by OohMac on Mar 15, 2022 10:57:38 GMT
Santos is such an interesting debate because Ian Evatt thinks hes Bobby Moore and others think hes Zat Knight(probably my worst ever defender who played more than a handful) in truth hes probably in the middle. All the attributes to be a real top Ledley King style centre back but concentration or just not that great with the basics. The when and where.
Sort of like John Stones pre Pep.
What i worry about is Ian Evatts refusal to believe that there is more to do. I get hes going to come out and say this and that but it cant be carrot, carrot, carrot. Has to be some stick.
Also a really unlikable trait that Evatt has got is a faux disappointment after a big win like Sunderland, Wimbeldon 6 and 4 nil and he'll come out with tosh like we could have scored more. Arent I a perfectionist and the week we create so very little and hes happy with us dominating matches while creating nothing.
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Post by riochforthereebok on Mar 15, 2022 12:03:45 GMT
My two penneth on Santos
He’s consistent, I’ll say that
Consistently inconsistent
One minute he’s EFL player of the month (some time way back last year) then BWFC player of the year (think Evatt rigged the ballot box) then named in the EFL team of the year, then made Captain!!
And then he goes on vacation (Cheltenham H Stockport A Fleetwood A - sent off & Burton A, amongst many other ball watching experiences he’s overseen)
Maybe I’m not seeing what others are seeing, but he’s not a good defender at all, even when we were having a decent February, he was still caught in no man’s land
Played 80 odd times for Barnet and scored 6 times, he’s played nearly the same amount of games here and done nowt, but I guess you could argue that it’s because we are so shit at set pieces that he’s never headed a goal from a corner or a free kick
He’s no Mark Came or Mark Winstanley, probably put him in the Jason Lydiate, Dave Sutton Glenn Keeley category, but he’s certainly nowhere near the best outside the Prem (unless your including non league sides Ian??) Put it this way, if he was sold, we’d move on quickly
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Post by realtrottersforever on Mar 15, 2022 12:32:55 GMT
Santos is such an interesting debate because Ian Evatt thinks hes Bobby Moore and others think hes Zat Knight(probably my worst ever defender who played more than a handful) in truth hes probably in the middle. All the attributes to be a real top Ledley King style centre back but concentration or just not that great with the basics. The when and where. Sort of like John Stones pre Pep. What i worry about is Ian Evatts refusal to believe that there is more to do. I get hes going to come out and say this and that but it cant be carrot, carrot, carrot. Has to be some stick. Also a really unlikable trait that Evatt has got is a faux disappointment after a big win like Sunderland, Wimbeldon 6 and 4 nil and he'll come out with tosh like we could have scored more. Arent I a perfectionist and the week we create so very little and hes happy with us dominating matches while creating nothing. it is a weird one. people can't even agree if he's good in the air. we know from his goalscoring exploits or lack of them , that's he's definitely 100% NOT super dominant in the air ( to say the least ) always remember BSA chuckling at Jaidi's goal grabbing abilities. thinking" blimey I thought I ( bsa) was good, but he's an absolute beast". sadly not as good on the deck. not a fluke as he still goes on to play for Soton & Brum and average 1 goal every 15 games. & plays in a world cup for Tunisia..only 3 games as they obviously would struggle to qualify out of the grp, but still managed to score from a header ! www.skysports.com/football/news/2317014/big-sam-praise-for-jaidiwe've had this issue for 2 years now. struggling defending set pieces, and not getting enough on attacking ones. yet still some super sleuths can't put their fingers on it. I get why IE likes him. though don't agree with the hyperbole. he's got the possession obsession and his style fits that bill. both DavidM and Andy mentioned in their match reports this week, we're aimlessly passing it about at the back in the last 5 mins when we're 1-0 down. taking patience to a fault !? . that is Evatt's way and he's not for changing on that. Santos suits that style, Beevers and Wheater would be horrendous in it. he clearly prioritises playing over defending. I just disagree that that style is necessary . it wasn't necessary the last time we were in this Div ( and didn't have a manager called Keith .) and we got promoted that season with 2 excellent proper defenders (Beavers and Wheater) who got clean sheets by the bucket load and scoring lots of set piece goals. I doubt Wigan or Rotherham defenders can pass it like Rico but i bet they can defend better than him. I can see what he does, I just don't put anywhere near as much value on what he does. just my opinion folks, as someone used to say on here (thinks ? was it Trotter ? )
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