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Post by andyl on Feb 24, 2018 18:23:35 GMT
We were overrun in the first half and could have been four down but for brave tackles and good saves. Second half different. We began with momentum and played much more in their half. Could have nicked it Our best players were Morais, Karacan and Burke. I thought Burke especially was powerful in midfield.. Could have nicked it Pratley battled through but was a bit short of energy and tackles. He could easily have been sent off. Some clever switches of tactics at half time stabilised things Alnwick 8 Morais 7 Wheater 6 Beevers 7 Robinson 5 Karacan 8 Burke 8 Le Fondre 5 Pratley 6 Ameobi 5 Wilbraham 4
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Post by Pedro on Feb 25, 2018 0:02:55 GMT
Listened to the whole game on Tower FM. First half sounded dire but impressed that tactics were actually used for a change and the subs worked. Marc Lies even said "Different prospect after the break. Matching their hosts stride for stride." Didn't gain that impression from the awful, unhealthy commentator still sniffing and hawking throughout. Will Brown missed a sitter, they hit the post and missed sitters so an awful lot of luck involved still in many of our points but well done the lads and Parky for definitely gaining an unexpected point and really fighting to the death again.
From BBC: Poss. 75% Away25%
Shots Home15 Away7
Shots on Target Home3 Away0
Corners Home8 Away4
Fouls Home13 Away19
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Post by joanna on Feb 25, 2018 10:31:36 GMT
So predictable that goals would dry up after cashing in on the goal-machine, Madine. Very short-sighted decision. £6-8 million is small-fry compared to the cost of relegation. Certainly, a good replacement should at least have been acquired first.
I know many hate the style we play when a big centre forward leads the line, but this year is about the absolutely vital need for survival. At the very least, he would have continued to be the option for a plan B, given that we don't seem to have the necessary players for fans' desired approach of Plan A via pass-and-move. Which other club has sold their top-scorer in January?! We are lightweight in attack now, whereas Madine occupied two defenders and provided space for runners as well as goals.
The clamour for Alf to play is misguided. He now has very little effect when he is called into action.
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Post by thegrud1 on Feb 25, 2018 12:01:34 GMT
*******The clamour for Alf to play is misguided. He now has very little effect when he is called into action.******* Joanna you didnt see the run he made to take defenders away or the Ameobi goal?? Madine wouldnt have done that ! You didnt see his winning goal....Madine COULDNT do that. He is far more mobile than madine and isnt one dimensional like Madine ! Personally I,m glad hes gone...gives club well needed funds and stops us playing prehistoric football !
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Post by andyl on Feb 25, 2018 23:14:24 GMT
Just a few supplementaries now that I'm back from Norwich and have had the opportunity to read others'posts:
1. That was Phil Parkinson at his tactical best. In the first half we were being overrun via our left flank and right flank. The back three was a disaster in the first half and their star player, Madison, was threading passes through unchallenged and had hit the post early on. We could have been four or five down but for some exceptional blocks, a couple of fine saves and a really bad miss. At half time we all feared an avalanche.
2. But in the second half we first of all shored up the left by moving Morais across, a ploy which also took us up the field and gave us invaluable early momentum .. He then took Wheater off and with Flanagan at right back plugged the holes on both sides with a sensible back four and more importantly put Burke much more closely on Madison and also took some pressure off Pratley who found his way into the game and was beginning to get his timing back. Madison did nothing else of note in the game. In the end we saw out the second half with some ease and even had a couple of good chances ourselves.
3. It's easy to knock Wilbraham but he nevertheless set up Karacan for our best chance which was well blocked and he also himself wasted a good chance after Flanagan cut through on the right. He was short of the pace and messed up his chance but it's worth noting that ALF who had as ever given his all was completely in the pocket of Norwich's man of the match, their excellent new German centre half who looked a seriously good player at this level - way too strong and quick for ALF but Wilbraham did unsettle him and lose him a couple of times - if only he was ten years younger! And yes in this game Madine would undoubtedly have given the newcomer a stiffer challenge but we fool ourselves, I think, if we imagine that Madine would have got anywhere significant against this opponent on this day.
4. But of course our possession stats were abysmal and that first half was very depressing. Yet we got a good point. Madine's departure has eased the financial pressures and if for no other reason than that it has to have been a good thing. And we should note that we are also seeing Alf and Karacan now- which is an indirect consequence of his departure presumably and very welcome. In my opinion Karacan has been a man of the match candidate these last two games and if we can keep him injury free he will be an asset. Let's not also forget that in exchange for Madine we have Walker, Le Fondre and Clough so at the least some options at the manager's disposal and an attack that is much less one dimensional.
5. We are very very good when out of possession. It's easy to underrate the progress made in this unattractive art. Some really good teams are struggling to score against us. And touchwood that strength will spare us from relegation although it will be a close run thing.
6. We have Ameobi and he's a threat. On Saturday he was up against a very good young player and had little effect. But alas otherwise we have very little creativity and almost none in the centre of the park-we have options on the flanks and Flanagan could be very good from what was seen on Saturday but our passing and ball retention are abysmal..and that's why relegation is still on the cards.. Maybe our new German will get fit enough soon to help address this. If we just had someone who could hold the ball and switch it to the flanks with accuracy we might yet improve.
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Post by whitesince63 on Feb 26, 2018 8:31:44 GMT
So predictable that goals would dry up after cashing in on the goal-machine, Madine. Very short-sighted decision. £6-8 million is small-fry compared to the cost of relegation. Certainly, a good replacement should at least have been acquired first. I know many hate the style we play when a big centre forward leads the line, but this year is about the absolutely vital need for survival. At the very least, he would have continued to be the option for a plan B, given that we don't seem to have the necessary players for fans' desired approach of Plan A via pass-and-move. Which other club has sold their top-scorer in January?! We are lightweight in attack now, whereas Madine occupied two defenders and provided space for runners as well as goals. The clamour for Alf to play is misguided. He now has very little effect when he is called into action. I fully agree about the absolute need for this season is survival and there can't be any doubt that selling Madine has affected Parky's direct style but surely finances are at least, if not more, important and nobody could have refused the money we received from Cardiff for what is a very average player. As Andy says, the players brought in to replace him, along with Alf and Ameobi provide us with a much wider opportunity than Madine ever did. Nobody's remotely expecting Barcelona or tippytappy football, the system will always be direct with Parkinson, but he is where he is and it's his job to use what players he has rather than complain about the loss of one player. In fairness Parky hasn't complained so it would be better if fans like yourself also got over not having Madine and looked positively at the players we do have who, used properly, are more than good enough to keep us up in my opinion and certainly better than you are giving them credit for.
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Post by thegrud1 on Feb 26, 2018 11:35:39 GMT
So predictable that goals would dry up after cashing in on the goal-machine, Madine. Very short-sighted decision. £6-8 million is small-fry compared to the cost of relegation. Certainly, a good replacement should at least have been acquired first. I know many hate the style we play when a big centre forward leads the line, but this year is about the absolutely vital need for survival. At the very least, he would have continued to be the option for a plan B, given that we don't seem to have the necessary players for fans' desired approach of Plan A via pass-and-move. Which other club has sold their top-scorer in January?! We are lightweight in attack now, whereas Madine occupied two defenders and provided space for runners as well as goals. The clamour for Alf to play is misguided. He now has very little effect when he is called into action. I fully agree about the absolute need for this season is survival and there can't be any doubt that selling Madine has affected Parky's direct style but surely finances are at least, if not more, important and nobody could have refused the money we received from Cardiff for what is a very average player. As Andy says, the players brought in to replace him, along with Alf and Ameobi provide us with a much wider opportunity than Madine ever did. Nobody's remotely expecting Barcelona or tippytappy football, the system will always be direct with Parkinson, but he is where he is and it's his job to use what players he has rather than complain about the loss of one player. In fairness Parky hasn't complained so it would be better if fans like yourself also got over not having Madine and looked positively at the players we do have who, used properly, are more than good enough to keep us up in my opinion and certainly better than you are giving them credit for....................................Couldnt have put it better myself WS !
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Post by joanna on Feb 26, 2018 17:11:45 GMT
I obviously need to make myself clearer:- It's less about the actual loss of Madine per se so much as about the lack of any replacement with physical presence to occupy defenders, hold up the ball, provide space for others, defend aerially in our own box and score their fair share of goals, both headed and on the ground, as Madine was doing.
We have wingers but no one to cross the ball to!
Since January 1st, we have scored 3 goals in 6 games, and not even looked like scoring for the majority of the time. Recent evidence shows we are sadly incapable of retaining possession. Attempts to do so inevitably break down.
We are now utterly lightweight in attack, easily brushed off the ball, struggling to play pass-and-move, as most fans understandably want.
6 million is no compensation for the cost of relegation, now looking more likely if we can't score enough goals due to the short-sighted sale of our top scorer without a competent replacement already in mind.
Warnock evidently appreciates the need to be able to vary attacking approaches, as BSA memorably did. Arsenal now also prove my point that teams need to blend muscle with skillful ball-play to give them a plan B; their rivals have acquired what Arsenal have lost in physicality.
Finding a Madine-substitute will not be cheap but risking relegation may prove far more costly!
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Post by thekraken on Feb 26, 2018 18:00:47 GMT
I’m in the ‘great bit of business’ camp on Madine.
In the 6 games since Madine left we’ve won 2, lost 2 and drawn 2. Goals for 3 against 5.
In the 6 league games before he left we won 3, lost 2 and drew 1. Goals for 5 against 5. Madine scored 4 of the 5.
So the stats show a fall off in performance since he left but not a big one. If we continue at this rate we’ll end up with 50 points. Blackburn went down with 51 last season. It might well be close but with 4 points in hand on Brum it would probably be too much to catch up (and we have to play them at home).
But let’s not forget the defence. 10 goals conceded in 12 games. 6 clean sheets. That’s promotion form.
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Post by joanna on Feb 26, 2018 19:53:18 GMT
Yep, defenders are working overtime and keeping us afloat with the help of attackers tracking back, but they are getting progressively more wild with their clearances, as the ball and opposition continually come back at them. Alnwick is performing heroics. Henry too is doing a useful job and Pratley will help with the all-action running power......but what are we offering, going forward? Is the new midfield guy creative at all? PP needs to develop a distinctive plan B for when the flimsy forwards are floundering (nice bit of soft alliteration there, if I say so myself!!) It would help the poor bloke enormously if there was an obvious alternative system he could deploy from the current ranks, but at present the idea of extra physical power is not available as an option, which leaves him hamstrung. Perhaps Pedro could suggest somebody from the youth teams who could give us that variety to our attacking play....
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Post by whitesince63 on Feb 27, 2018 14:53:05 GMT
Yep, defenders are working overtime and keeping us afloat with the help of attackers tracking back, but they are getting progressively more wild with their clearances, as the ball and opposition continually come back at them. Alnwick is performing heroics. Henry too is doing a useful job and Pratley will help with the all-action running power......but what are we offering, going forward? Is the new midfield guy creative at all? PP needs to develop a distinctive plan B for when the flimsy forwards are floundering (nice bit of soft alliteration there, if I say so myself!!) It would help the poor bloke enormously if there was an obvious alternative system he could deploy from the current ranks, but at present the idea of extra physical power is not available as an option, which leaves him hamstrung. Perhaps Pedro could suggest somebody from the youth teams who could give us that variety to our attacking play.... I see where you're coming from Joanna but not every club uses a big centre forward, in fact most don't. It doesn't mean they don't need some physicality of course but relying only on one big man to do everything is not necessarily the wisest thing. You can look at the likes of Brentford currently who are relatively small yet are beating much physically bigger sides. I don't personally accept that the players we have are not a suitable replacement for Madine, I just believe Parkinson doesn't have the ability to plot a system which gets the best from them. Madine is a big loss to Parky but I think we can be guilty of building him up to be better than he was and I think Warnock will find that out before long. That said it looks like KA and Parky are still in the market for a forward so maybe you'll get your big man after all.
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Post by wots on Feb 27, 2018 16:52:06 GMT
Part of a Darren Pratley quote from today's BN. It may explain a few things: "we’re not a possession-based team, anyone who sees us play knows we’re not going to start rolling it out from the back. We’ll go a bit longer.".
Hope it helps your discussion.
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Post by joanna on Feb 27, 2018 17:37:58 GMT
Yes, that is helpful, wots. In other words, we remain predictable but without a target man.....great!!
What we need are OPTIONS in attack, the sort of thing that Big Sam built into his BW team: SKD complemented by Okocha and Djorkaeff plus mobility and pace around them.
Look at the leading squads in the country:- are they only one-dimensional delicate ball-players, as toothless Arsenal have now become without Giroud?
The physicality does not even have to mean giant stature so much as strong, muscular bodies...Consider Aguero, Kane, etc who ADD to their more skilled creative colleagues.
We are in danger of going from one-dimensional hoof to Madine for 90 minutes, to one-dimensional play-it-on-the-floor via flimsy forwards for 90 minutes, if PP tries to play to the remaining players' rather weak creative abilities.
Our wingers now have no one to aim for except at set-pieces. Who is going to ease defenders off the ball?
Having sold Madine, we must try to sign a player who can impose himself on the opposition in attack. A good one would cost more than the money we got for Madine, but without one, I fear goals will become more scarce as our lightweights get out-muscled throughout a game.
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Post by bonaparte on Feb 28, 2018 0:27:17 GMT
Joanna, Some stats. We have scored 29 goals in the league this season. Madine scored 10, of which 2 were penalties, and one was a superb free kick. So in open play he scored 7, 1 header and 6 right foot shots, in 28 appearances. Our light weight forwards must have created the chances, I have no record of goals from corners, perhaps others do. But in scoring these goals from the hoofball boring style of play, others Ameobi,Vela, Alf,Morais, etc were sacrificed. So PP wants a big forward, Ameobi gets pushed out to the wing, where he has few chances to score, Alf gets dropped, Vela is inexplicably poor Midfield is all about defending lost possession from hoofball, rather than creating chances. Defenders head out aimlessly, usually find an opponent, and the process repeats, until we concede,usually late in the game. Not good football and relegation loomed. I only hope PP can work out that a 4-4-2 system, with Ameobi allowed to roam, supported be Clogh, Vela, Alf etc could actually save us. Not much confidence. Maybe we will get lucky as we did last year.
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Post by whitesince63 on Feb 28, 2018 16:46:05 GMT
Yes, that is helpful, wots. In other words, we remain predictable but without a target man.....great!! What we need are OPTIONS in attack, the sort of thing that Big Sam built into his BW team: SKD complemented by Okocha and Djorkaeff plus mobility and pace around them. Look at the leading squads in the country:- are they only one-dimensional delicate ball-players, as toothless Arsenal have now become without Giroud? The physicality does not even have to mean giant stature so much as strong, muscular bodies...Consider Aguero, Kane, etc who ADD to their more skilled creative colleagues. We are in danger of going from one-dimensional hoof to Madine for 90 minutes, to one-dimensional play-it-on-the-floor via flimsy forwards for 90 minutes, if PP tries to play to the remaining players' rather weak creative abilities. Our wingers now have no one to aim for except at set-pieces. Who is going to ease defenders off the ball? Having sold Madine, we must try to sign a player who can impose himself on the opposition in attack. A good one would cost more than the money we got for Madine, but without one, I fear goals will become more scarce as our lightweights get out-muscled throughout a game. Oh for SKD now Joanna. I agree most successful teams do have a strong central forward who can pave the way for more skilful players though I don't believe they have to be giants either. In fact young Connor Hall isn't big but looks strong. I would disagree with your assertion that our style has changed from one dimensional hoof to Madine to one dimensional play it on the floor. I don't actually think Parky has changed anything, it's still hoof, one dimensional hoof as if Madine were still here. Even with the washing machine, little ever came off him, he never brought others into the attack as players like Armstrong and Ameobi were stuck out on the wing. Our midfield was slow and didn't support, especially with Pratley and Henry. Sadly, I don't see anything changing whilst Parkinson's still here because I just don't think he knows how. We have got players who can do the job but they will never be played under Parky in a formation to suit them. You may disagree Joanna but I think our players are physical enough if played correctly. You don't need a battering ram to win over defences, skill and pace often work much better and now without Madine we have that aplenty.
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