|
Post by andyl on Sept 3, 2014 14:24:16 GMT
It's interesting that for 2013/14 over a full season of Premier League fixtures the stats for number of shots per game matched the top three in the league but for possession and pass accuracy they didn't. In fact Swansea were in the top three for the latter two but ended up 12th I think. 17 shots per game was the going rate for the top three; the others immediately below managed 15.
Whereas I agree entirely with the importance of putting opponents on the back foot, I think there are alternative strategies for doing so. Intensity in the first fifteen; man-marking a key player; keeping the ball and naked aggression are as likely to achieve the objective as marauding down the wings; running with the ball; or launching long passes to vulnerable areas ( eg over the head of Paul Robinson). But the common denominator is that to win football matches however and whenever the team goes about it individuals must shoot regularly, accurately and score. Nothing sets a team on the back foot more than conceding a goal.
A problem at the moment is that we neither attack nor defend to a consistent strategy and we are some way from being able to adapt to do both according to circumstance as the best teams must. It's all rather a muddle.No-one can fail to see the limitations of our current manager and indeed the resources at his disposal. The question remains as tho whether his strengths- and he does have some in my opinion- outweigh or override his weaknesses - a question for both short and long terms. Inevitably time is running out for DF as it did for Sammy L, Megson and Coyle- no manager can survive a sustained run of poor first team results for much longer than 10 games- and let's make no mistake if Eddie D decides he wants him to go he will and the money will be found to make it happen. But it hasn't happened yet and we have seen two years running that it doesn't take much to start off a run of good results and indeed some attacking play of note. And as we saw last year for example at home to Blackburn teams can become disheartened and afraid very easily. Cpl Jones is not wrong- they really don't like it up em'.......- and here I agree with Joanna bayonets must be fixed!
|
|
|
Post by bonaparte on Sept 3, 2014 15:32:10 GMT
Andy,
Although I am sure DF does have some good qualities, it is hard to see them in his management of the team. Perhaps you can enlighten us? As regards quality, we have CYL, Ream, McNaughton, Craig Davies, Bogdan all current internationals, others with Premiere league experience Beckford, Pratley Mark Davies for example. They may not be at their best now but are certainly are no dummies. DF just cannot get the best out of them, that is clear. A MOM appearance can almost guarantee a seat on the bench next match. He plays players out of position all of the time, it was interesting to note Baptiste's comments about playing central defender at Blackburn. He rarely uses substitutes early enough to have an impact on the game, or to give them a meaningful match experience. I could go on and on. DF is a very poor manager and his record shows it, unfortunately he got lucky last season and by fluke the team put a run together, I would argue in spite of DF.
|
|
|
Post by andyl on Sept 3, 2014 19:28:59 GMT
Bonaparte I offered some strengths on an early 12 August post. One- business management and in particular financial management has been challenged but I think that he is operating within a given budget and FFP rules but has engaged with them more than many managers would. He is trying to work within resources and has made no high profile complaints or stands eg. as Todd did when Frandsen was sold or BSA apparently did when Gartside wouldn't back him.Would that he had , some may say. He is a management team player and doing his best for the cause. He has worked long hours, I believe, and overhauled the science based aspects of management and player support. He uses statistics and information. He is fairly knowledgeable about players. His youth recruitment shows promise. One player, White has made two consecutive appearances in the first team. In general he manages reasonably. Here please take my use of the word manage to refer to the more scientific aspects of management
Re the names you mention Ream was voted player of the season under DF and has been recalled to the US squad. I happen to think he's a poor left back. I want to see him in the centre or better still in midfield. Moxey was bought as Tierney before him to fill the left back slot. Ream has had to fill in but when given the chance DF has got the best out of him, Craig D in two bad home games that I have seen has played as well as he has for ages. He looks fitter and more purposeful. For me he lacks class but under DF he has improved. McNaughton has twice come back to play for DF and has played well. I worry that he will hold back White, Threlkeld and Riley but he has been a strenght of early season when fit. Bogdan had an excellent return to the side coming back after injury last season ( albeit a poor beginning) adn Mills and Wheater also did well defensively.Mark D has looked good on the few occasions he played early last season- equaliser at Wolves for example. CYL I agree has never been the same since his horrific injury and it could be argued he has been messed about positionally. Howver it could be argued he has been given opportunities to shine in a variety of positions too. Pratley has never been good but his best spell was ealy on last season under DF. Beckford gets lots of chances but misses too many- and that's not DF's fault. Beckford has been the same all his life except for a brief spell at Leeds. I'd add that DF's BWFC teams have had poor pre seasons, lousy starts and quite strong finishes. There is a pattern here.
All that said I am extremely critical of DF in terms of his leadership which can be characterised as more of an art than a science. The subs point is one I make all the time. I also think he rotates players very poorly ( even if I do approve of rotation policies in what is a very intensive environment) He has fixed opinions. Joanna is not wrong when she refers to his arrogant, I know best or I can fix it attitude. And his PR gaffes, inconsistency of utterances and somewhat stubborn approach to team selection and tactics is indicative of a manager who is pretty ordinary in terms of his intellectual appreciation of what is going on around him.
I think with DF we'll have good runs and bad. The resources within which he has to work are obviously damaging to ambition. whites since 63 and one or two others were fed up of him almost from day one. That hasn't been my position but it will only take one or two more stupidities and three or four more boring losses for me to lose patience even if I do ( as I did with LSL) rgeret that some of the longer term strategies may not have time to take effect. But there is precedent for that Even Nat was sacked before his youth team came through!
|
|
|
Post by BWFCTILIDIE on Sept 3, 2014 20:09:14 GMT
That's a great post AndyL and pretty much my thoughts to perfection.
|
|
|
Post by spanishjonny on Sept 3, 2014 20:29:55 GMT
If Eddie HAS decided that enough is enough, Gartside and Dougie can only carry out instructions. If we agree we don't have any outside debt Eddie may be looking to sell the club on. A mid table championship club with no debt, a decent stadium and good training set up should surely interest someone. The position we are in now is similar to when Eddie came in.
A new owner would want to bring in his own chairman and manager and spend any money how HE wanted and try and build the club up again. To me it looks like Dougie's remit is to do the best with what we've got and try and keep us in this league. The players are not stupid (?) they must know what's going on and their own ambitions might not be the same as Dougie's or the clubs at the moment. The whole club is in a state of flux, I can only see us drifting along for the foreseeable future till the situation is resolved and no matter how much we shout and stamp our feet, until Eddie decides what happens next, we will have the choice of going to the games or moaning from afar.
|
|
|
Post by BWFCTILIDIE on Sept 3, 2014 20:36:18 GMT
There may be method in all this madness? A number of clubs will get a 2 window transfer ban and a fine in the very near future for breaking FFP rules. We should escape the ban for coming into line with requirements. Less teams able to bid means more available players on the market meaning player demands and prices should drop
|
|
|
Post by bonaparte on Sept 5, 2014 8:22:34 GMT
Andy, I have read your response to my post. You might have more insight than me on DFs team player skills and not complaining about issues. However I see him more as a yes man, and that to raise issues would see him kicked out, as it is his only redeeming feature. As for working long hours, I would prefer a person who worked smart, not long. As to statistic based analysis, he eventually got rid of Knight 312/784, Baptiste 168 (whoscored.com) and brought in Trotter 485, Feeney 294, Danns 295. How does that work? As to science based player management. I thought the idea was to create tailor made individual training plans, and reduce soft tissue injuries. I do not see much improvement in the squad as a result. Managers in all industries, and football is no different, are judged by their results, on this DF clearly fails, pre last season the team were one of the favorites for a top spot. In the event he was lucky the team was not relegated, probably because he finally realised that Knight, his chosen captain was part of the problem , and, as we had all been asking for months, dropped him. Managers also need to be consistent, to have a long term plan and stick to it. I remember he was going to build a tea round Eagles, then made Zat Knight captain, then playing 3-5-2, each time seems a quick fix abandoned for the latest whim. As for understanding his players, the Knight, Eagles, Baptiste, Andrews issues show he does not, and now his current captain Spearing is in question, we will have to see how that pans out. As for DF getting the best out of the players, we have seen to often a player gets a chance, does well and is dropped next time, how does that help to get the best out of players. Also so far this season this season players may well have had one eye on the transfer window, we will have to see how they perform now that opportunity has passed. As I explained in my post, and as DF himself said, he has enough talented players to do well in the Championship, internationals and players with Prem experience, so were does the fault lie? It must be with the management. It must be with DF.
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Sept 5, 2014 11:44:44 GMT
I find myself agreeing far more with Bonaparte than with those who seem determined to clutch at straws to praise Dougie.
With regard to which players have improved during Dougie's reign, Andy says:
"Re the names you mention Ream was voted player of the season under DF and has been recalled to the US squad. I happen to think he's a poor left back. I want to see him in the centre or better still in midfield. Moxey was bought as Tierney before him to fill the left back slot. Ream has had to fill in but when given the chance DF has got the best out of him, Craig D in two bad home games that I have seen has played as well as he has for ages. He looks fitter and more purposeful. For me he lacks class but under DF he has improved. McNaughton has twice come back to play for DF and has played well. I worry that he will hold back White, Threlkeld and Riley but he has been a strenght of early season when fit. Bogdan had an excellent return to the side coming back after injury last season ( albeit a poor beginning) adn Mills and Wheater also did well defensively.Mark D has looked good on the few occasions he played early last season- equaliser at Wolves for example. CYL I agree has never been the same since his horrific injury and it could be argued he has been messed about positionally. Howver it could be argued he has been given opportunities to shine in a variety of positions too. Pratley has never been good but his best spell was ealy on last season under DF. Beckford gets lots of chances but misses too many."
I'd disagree with you, Andy, in almost every case: you admit yourself that Ream is no left back and he is getting worse and worse this season. DF has hardly ever used him in what everyone agrees is his best position in midfield, despite the fact that the Medo/Spearing pairing is unsatisfactory and again deteriorating.
Equally, CYL is not used to our best advantage; he has just been made captain of South Korea for how he plays for them rather than how he is wasted for us.
Both Bogdan and Lonergan are still prone to horrendous errors and still punt. I might agree with you on Mills but that's because he started from such a low base! There is no evidence to suggest that Mark D is improving....he's hardly been spotted! Craig D may run around more but is no better in terms of end-product or skill. In fact, I can't see evidence of improved skills anywhere on the pitch. Training/coaching is a complete failure.
And as for youth, DF's words do not match hard reality. You seem, Andy, to be looking at form early last season in some cases, whereas I am considering displays NOW. We look relegation fodder. There is no way that Beckford has improved and the worrying signs are that Mason and Moxey are going the same way. Trotter continues to prove that his purchase was a misguided one for this division.
There appears to be no consistent strategy to ensure that each player is used to get the best out of them.
|
|
|
Post by andyl on Sept 6, 2014 10:52:43 GMT
Bonaparte, yes I agree with all of your recent post
Joanna, I don't think we are in that much disagreement on this thread. I am perhaps looking back over the whole of DF's tenure to see if that brings perspectives that this season doesn't. And I do think Criag D has done OK in the games I've seen. You may be a bit harsh on Mason who each game is our likeliest scorer.
But the only worthwhile response the team and DF need to make is to win a few games well this season and to date there is little encouragement. I am beginning to begrudge the travelling and cost. I 'm going to the next four league games and thereafter will take more measured stock
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Sept 7, 2014 8:49:55 GMT
Spoke to some of my Wednesday mates last night who aren't bothering to go to the match being quoted £33 a ticket. They're so confident they'll win they feel they don't need to waste their money!! Just like me . How sad is this getting when it will be the same with bloody Rotherham after. I'll be a laughing stock in South Yorkshire.
|
|
|
Post by megsontilidie on Sept 8, 2014 10:59:59 GMT
Andy, I have read your response to my post. You might have more insight than me on DFs team player skills and not complaining about issues. However I see him more as a yes man, and that to raise issues would see him kicked out, as it is his only redeeming feature. As for working long hours, I would prefer a person who worked smart, not long. As to statistic based analysis, he eventually got rid of Knight 312/784, Baptiste 168 (whoscored.com) and brought in Trotter 485, Feeney 294, Danns 295. How does that work? As to science based player management. I thought the idea was to create tailor made individual training plans, and reduce soft tissue injuries. I do not see much improvement in the squad as a result.Managers in all industries, and football is no different, are judged by their results, on this DF clearly fails, pre last season the team were one of the favorites for a top spot. In the event he was lucky the team was not relegated, probably because he finally realised that Knight, his chosen captain was part of the problem , and, as we had all been asking for months, dropped him. Managers also need to be consistent, to have a long term plan and stick to it. I remember he was going to build a tea round Eagles, then made Zat Knight captain, then playing 3-5-2, each time seems a quick fix abandoned for the latest whim. As for understanding his players, the Knight, Eagles, Baptiste, Andrews issues show he does not, and now his current captain Spearing is in question, we will have to see how that pans out. As for DF getting the best out of the players, we have seen to often a player gets a chance, does well and is dropped next time, how does that help to get the best out of players. Also so far this season this season players may well have had one eye on the transfer window, we will have to see how they perform now that opportunity has passed. As I explained in my post, and as DF himself said, he has enough talented players to do well in the Championship, internationals and players with Prem experience, so were does the fault lie? It must be with the management. It must be with DF. brilliant post there Bonaparte ! the bit about soft tissue injuries is especially good theme to introduce. www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/leading-coach-raymond-verheijen-says-theres-a-reason-for-arsenal-injuries-9239876.html the dutch conditioning coach Verheijen quotes Roberto Martinez here : “I always believe every injury can be avoided,” Martinez told the Daily Mail in 2012. “I don’t believe in soft-tissue injuries. If you get a soft-tissue injury in football, a mistake has been made.”.
isn't Moxey out with a soft tissue as well as Mcnaughton after playing hardly any games for us ?? while not very old, neither of those 2 are spring chickens,but of course the rhetoric from DF & Iles would like to suggest otherwise. with Big Sam he talked the talk, but also walked the walk..we saw the difference on the pitch. Df as usual is all talk..all mouth and no trousers !. Andy L rightly has acknowledged in previous posts ,this is one of the more frustrating bit of DF. yet somehow here seems to be giving DF the benefit of the doubt in quoting articles about stats analysis... if you remember these same articles with Brian Prestidge said we aimed to pass it out from the back ..oh dear..lol. this is where i agree with Bonaparte and Joanna..if we're not seeing it on the pitch...it counts for nothing in terms of a credit on Df's Cv. Coyle supposedly had them playing table tennis and inappropriate light training. here and at wigan...so again you'd think it'd be difficult for Df not to be able to improve on that lot... but, you have to ask,..do they look fitter any now . it's hard to tell with the negative ,defensive, reactive, "on the back foot" style. they don't look fit enough to do a high pressing, high energy style. also like the line about working smarter rather long hours per se..i've heard terry venables say "practice doesn't make perfect.. it makes permanent" . if you're doing the wrong things, it doesn't matter how hard to try, things won't improve.
|
|
|
Post by OohMac on Sept 9, 2014 16:36:07 GMT
Hello, I'm an old user from the Bolton News forum, but with a brand spanking new name. I know how much (some) people hated when you started a new thread when there was a related topic open. So i'll just add to this thoughts on this.
Basically the only defence that people seem to use with Dougie is that how hard a job he has, but I want to know if having a hard job is a valid excuse for doing a bad job. In any walk of life its not acceptable to do a bad job just because its hard. You do a professional job or you leave/resign or eventually get the sack or end up on Rogue Traders.
Even in this sport, does anyone manager have an easy job? An easy job in football doesn't exist, Celtic possibly but losing 3 out of 4 qualifying Champs League matches sure adds to the pressure. But seriously, Ancelotti, Guardiola, Mouirinho, Pelligrini, Wenger, Van Gaal none of them have easy jobs and they're right at the top so what hope do the others are.
I'd say the safest job in UK is arguably Brendan Rogers. What a hard job he had. Took over a club limping in with 7th or 8th place finished. Best player wanted out and most experienced defender retires. He had a tough a job as any, especially when you think of how long those fans gave Hodgson. He changed it not with money, admittedly they spent a bit but recouped a bit too, but the main changes were down to a new philosophy adopted. They played with a new attacking ethos, the hard work done on the training ground. The players are almost interchangeable because the system he set up works. I know we'll never have the likes of Gerrard, Stirling, etc thats not my point. My point is that in all Dougie's reign there has been zero consistency, no real vision. For me he's never had a period of over three or four games where he's played a team that looked like they've played with each other before!
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Sept 9, 2014 18:49:45 GMT
Hello, I'm an old user from the Bolton News forum, but with a brand spanking new name. I know how much (some) people hated when you started a new thread when there was a related topic open. So i'll just add to this thoughts on this. Basically the only defence that people seem to use with Dougie is that how hard a job he has, but I want to know if having a hard job is a valid excuse for doing a bad job. In any walk of life its not acceptable to do a bad job just because its hard. You do a professional job or you leave/resign or eventually get the sack or end up on Rogue Traders. Even in this sport, does anyone manager have an easy job? An easy job in football doesn't exist, Celtic possibly but losing 3 out of 4 qualifying Champs League matches sure adds to the pressure. But seriously, Ancelotti, Guardiola, Mouirinho, Pelligrini, Wenger, Van Gaal none of them have easy jobs and they're right at the top so what hope do the others are. I'd say the safest job in UK is arguably Brendan Rogers. What a hard job he had. Took over a club limping in with 7th or 8th place finished. Best player wanted out and most experienced defender retires. He had a tough a job as any, especially when you think of how long those fans gave Hodgson. He changed it not with money, admittedly they spent a bit but recouped a bit too, but the main changes were down to a new philosophy adopted. They played with a new attacking ethos, the hard work done on the training ground. The players are almost interchangeable because the system he set up works. I know we'll never have the likes of Gerrard, Stirling, etc thats not my point. My point is that in all Dougie's reign there has been zero consistency, no real vision. For me he's never had a period of over three or four games where he's played a team that looked like they've played with each other before! That's they haven't played together before, or at least not enough to call it anything like a settled team. Freedman will never be successful unless he quits the tinkering, chopping and changing which are all avoidable. Somebody ought to tell him that it's teams that win games unless you're fortunate to have a Ronaldo or Messi to win it for you. We don't but if he just let the players have a run together we might see some progress. Sadly I don't think he will and for me there are way too many weaknesses with him elsewhere so ultimately you are also right about it ending in the boot. Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later. On a brighter note welcome to the site, good to have new blood.
|
|
|
Post by andyl on Sept 11, 2014 5:43:41 GMT
If I read it rightly ooohmacron's point is that Liverpool ' s manager works in training to evolve a way of playing into which any player can be trained to fit. And that this is good?
If it is I agree.It is not the changing personnel from game to game which is the problem nor what is perceived by some as tinkering and rotation.That for me is essential given the intensity of the modern game.
The problem for me is that DF rotates badly!!And that there is no system into which any player can seamlessly fit. And that's why changes in personnel appear and are disruptive? It may even be why changes in mid game are resisted too long.But perhaps I give too much credit here?I suspect it's back to Einstein with repeated behaviour. Maybe we would have a Piaget thread if we believed DF capable of cognitive development? ?
|
|
|
Post by OohMac on Sept 11, 2014 20:11:35 GMT
Yes thats what I'm saying. Sometimes the teams have been announced and I think he's actually got it right for a change. But then they perform poorly and I think its down to the system being too rigid not allowing for any creativity. Doesn't matter what players get put in they're not able to do what they're good at.
Brendan Rodgers was playing the same way at Swansea, fast attacking football that killed teams. He's incorporated the same style with slightly better players and the success is there to be seen. Think thats the difference. That's his philosophy, Dougies as he's said is 0-0 try to snatch a win. So in training instead of working on quick passing, movement, picking out runs, triangle passing, etc we'll be working on absorbing pressure, defending set pieces(11 in the box), and probably running out the clock and frustrating teams, taking the tempo out of the game and silencing the crowd(Including ours playing at home) If i'm wrong I'm sure I'd see a more animated Dougie and Lennie on the touchline but they seem like everything is going to plan unless we're 2-0 down.
Dougie had relative success when we had Dawson on loan and he thinks he can play that way over the course of a season. So be it but you live by the sword and die by it and so far Dougie is dying.
I don't have the answers for the life after Dougie, just hoping for an attack minded coach who is willing to take a chance on the youth and try and get some entertainment back to the fans. I will get shut down here but I wouldn't mind seeing Rene Mulhensteen given a chance. Yes, i've probably lost you now and you'll scoff at his managerial career and tell me how he's a number 2 but he talks a good game and didn't have the easiest job and Man Utd were a much worse team when he left. Could do worse but I wouldn't let Gartside appoint our new tea lady. You shouldn't get 5 bites of the cherry.
|
|