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Post by andyl on Sept 7, 2024 16:28:15 GMT
I've noted several BN writers having a go at this and also the 'In Defence of Evatt' thread plus some match report codicils. I don't think the BN writers quite get to the heart of it because they shy away from discussing individuals' shortcomings and strengths. Various of rtf's statistical analyzese bear on this as will others I haven#'t researched. I've seen two live games and two on TV.
1. IE claims injuries, players not up to speed--- whilst this may be true, it's also true for all clubs. It's a bit like saying the Grand National started at 4-15 and your horse turned up at 4-20? Also we have Markham and co and budget restraints of prudence
2. System change--I've noted three players wandering around up top three times but next to no service from the flanks. We have been short in midfield. I do though think the squad is stronger and that subs are affecting games positively when introduced proactively, albeit negatively when in despair or all lobbed on at once. We still play three at the back and are tasked to play the ball to Santos at all times wherever we are, even taking corners!
3. Last year post the Bradley/Jones combo on the right flank we swapped it for a Dacres-Cogley Jones combo. It worked very well and we got lots of overlaps even supplying Victor with an early season hat trick of what he's good at. Jones got picked for Australia and straightaway D-C's effectiveness was halved and when Jones returned he was off the pace so D-C remained moribund. This year D-C has run inside a couple of times but without Jones defaults to passing back and never overlaps or takes on his opponent on the line. This has decimated our one attacking ploy. Quite clearly we miss Jones and the statistics of several seasons show it. He has been our main attacking threat in our winger less model. That Williams is injured and Schon is kept back neuters on both sides- a situation not seen since IE played Harry brockbank at left wing back. Doh!
4. Santos is a liability- slows us down, has given away three goals so far ( and an argument of more if say we ask where the heck he was on Exeter's first). He also neuters any set piece threat we might otherwise have on our own set pieces
5. These days midfield players are taught not to hold the ball but to scan for movement off the ball and players in space and either move it to them quickly or lay it back to whoever passed it to them, in our case usually Santos or Thomasson. Campo style hold it, fall on it is out of favour everywhere but we could do with a bit of it in our midfield. Reo- Coker was one of this type and I think we need it.
6. Sheehan at times our best player last year is being mercilessly bullied- we are leaving him too exposed in our man short midfield. Thomasson is playing better but as only he, Morley and at times Santos could play a long accurate pass w are short in this respect too.
Could we do it any different? I'll offer a few thoughts in a second part to this having started it off
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Post by andyl on Sept 7, 2024 18:23:28 GMT
Part 2
It is, touchwood, clear that we have some 'moment' players and some workhorses. There's no-one who doesn't look capable. Forini has speed and power and a brain, Matete can make sharp forward bursts, Schon is fairly nippy and dogged and can overlap ( but is small). Osei Tutu has a turn of speed. and can shoot with both feet. Arfield showed at Shrewsbury that he can link play up and has an eye for goal. We have yet to see Llolos. We know Mendez Gomes can do the unusual. Collins can see runners around him and has an eye for goal and position. Dempsey has energy and forward momentum but little passing skill. Dacres-Cogley is an ok full back. McAtee and Charles are niggly nuisances and both can shoot and pounce on loose balls. Toal is slow and in my opinion better on his wrong left foot than on his right where his lack of passing ability cramps forward movement. Johnson is not great aerially but has a thunderous challenge and can make a good pass 1 in 3. Baxter and Southwood are both good shot stoppers, Baxter is better aerially, Southwood with the ball at his feet, I think. Thomason can hold the ball ,if spinning in circles, he can also prompt an attack and shoot. Adeboyejo is improving as a line leader and looks better against better teams and with overlaps. It's a stongish squad if the pieces are assembled properly and trained to full fitness. So, we have to put the jigsaw together and then encourage the right movement and mobiity. At present I think IE is part trying to play from the back and part trying to launch balls to channel runners. Sheehan is our only bona fide midfielder and often illustrates just how much we miss Kieran Lee, our best player in the Evatt era.. To the jigsaw:
1. Jones must play on the right of defence. I think he would suit a back four better than three and have more time to overlap. I'd prefer to see a central pairing of two from Forini, Toal and Johnston and would be happy with either Schon or Williams at left back, with the same licence to push up as Jones. I think the three named central defenders could be a force on our attacking set pieces.
2. I'd rather like to have two defensive midfielders but we haven't got them ( Lee was ever so good at this as at times was MJ Williams), so unless one of the defenders can step out and do the screening role as Stubbs, Campo, Hierro, Faye managed then this is a problem. Matete and Sheehan seem to have some skills but only really Thomasson gets stuck in ( and he isn't getting booked this year, so a definite improvement.) For all that I'd rather seem him more forward.But unless the free agent is a Kieran Lee type to release him, I doubt it will happen Could Santos be redeployed.? I doubt it? Johnston? Maybe? Schon - quite possibly ?
3. We need width. On the right D-C and Jones might function but I think either Adeboyejo or Dempsey must play a part over there. On the left Osei-Tutu might develop but we sorely need a winger . 4. Upfront McAtee and Collins are too alike and Charles lacks basic skills but will make twice the number of chances he takes. I think Adebpyeo should probably start but we need two up front and more emphasis in midfield so one of these must make way. It probably comes down to McAtee or Charles at any one time with Adeboyejo or Collins alongside but they must run laterally especially Adeboyejo.
5. Defending set pieces we must pull McAtee back to defend the left side far post rather than Schon and we must mark men. We must also pick up edge of box threats.
6 Out of possession we are doing quite well this year but if we had a solider defensive base we could maybe push up more aggressively from the back and at quicker tempo. I'm all for slick passing and manoeuvring one on ones with high tempo and alacrity of lateral and forward movement
7. We must shoot when we have sight but at the same time the emphasis must be on getting to byelines and creating in box opportunities with pull backs
8. On attacking set pieces if Santos plays he must not be allowed near them . I think a mix of fast short corners and the odd long cross suits us. We need to be much more creative when we do have set pieces. Morley is a big loss but Collins can surely practice some shooting
OK I've convinced myself that we do have the resources to move up the league but unless say Llolos comes through I doubt we can contend without a major rethink of style and selection. Fortunately though we have a manager paid to work out the jigsaws and be accountable for all this. But most of all he will need to change and be more flexible, proactive and decisive than he has thus far shown and he will have to be right about the players he chooses.
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Post by one2many on Sept 8, 2024 12:48:43 GMT
Thanks Andy. Good analysis. I went yesterday to Charlton v Rotherham. Charlton played long ball. Rotherham more possession based, but quite different to BWFC. In summary, neither side created much. I can't stand Evatts Football but I am not sure it is much worse than what other teams are doing in the third division.
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Post by westandlower on Sept 8, 2024 16:28:04 GMT
Good analysis Andy. I would not disagree with much. I saw one of the pre-season friendlies that featured Lolos. Unfair to criticise on one pre-season game against what was a superior team perhaps, but dead loss came to mind at the time.
I suggest you send your CV to Sharon - you never know what may happen!
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Post by OohMac on Sept 8, 2024 20:52:07 GMT
Seems really obvious to me but 5 at the back doesn't work. It is asking far too much of a far too limited wing backs. Connor Bradley was the exception to the rule. Most L1 players can't run up and down 10K a game, three times a week and keep delivering.
They either pick up knocks from too much wear and tear or put in really tired and lacklustre performances.
Seems obvious to me, especially at home, but a flat back 4 would give us another body in a better position. BUT Evatt now has too many centre backs and no natural width in attack and this system is a sort of way of not having to make tough decisions like not playing one, or more, of Collins, Charles, McAtee and not dropping one of Santos, Toal and Johnston.
I think possibly GJ could play as a standard LB as he lacks the height and physical presence and I think toal and Santos could do a really good job at basic defending. Then Thomason, Matete, Sheehan in the middle but then there's the problem. Are Schon and TuTu attack minded enough? Can either Collins and Mcatee play that wide man role effectively or would it all just seem to square pegs and round holes.
Barrow, Mansfield, Shrewsbury would have been a good chance to try these things but Ians not really interested is he?
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 8, 2024 21:42:12 GMT
For me we’ve got lots of good players but not a team. I can’t really work out who’s playing where these days and I’m not even sure the players can as they seem to fall over themselves. If you asked me to name our best team right now I’d have no idea and that for me is the nub of the problem. I really don’t think we needed to sign all these players, just a solid defensive midfielder would have done for me and whilst I’d probably have replaced CJ I’d have definitely kept Bod. With Johnson back in the middle Iredale and Williams would have been more than adequate on the left and with an ever improving Forrester and Toal on the right I’d have been happy with JDC and Gethin covering the right back position. Now I’m just confused because I don’t know where these new players fit in yet we still haven’t fixed the defensive midfield position vacated by MJ all that time ago. Personally I just think Evatt’s lost the plot now and doesn’t know who to play where because he has so many options and so many to keep happy which is a problem in itself and means we’ll never see a settled side. ☹️
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Post by riochforthereebok on Sept 9, 2024 10:59:49 GMT
At the risk of possibly repeating all of the above, questions from FV need to be put to Evatt in that their investments (Collins Charles McAtee Schon) are not doing the business and what can Evatt change to get the best out of these investments? Same can be said of JDC, Randall (when fit) Sheehan, Dempsey,
Less said about Evatt’s captain the better🤔🤔
My take on it for what it’s really worth, I was excited when we signed Charles way back when, I was doubly thrilled when we nabbed Collins and thought we’d hit box office with McAtee and Schon
Now, I’m struggling to see any positives from all 4 put together when you consider how good they’ve been/were here and at their former clubs!!
Is this because Evatt has over coached the life out of them or is it because they don’t know how to play the unsuccessful EvattBall system?
Let’s face it, we don’t see smiles from any of them and they have a look of stress about them when they take to the field
We have Manager Evatt Assistant Manager Atherton Assistant to the Assistant Stephen Crainey First Team Coach Matt Craddock Goalkeeping Coach Matt Gilkes Head of Sport Science Paul Walsh (no, not that one) And plenty of Analysts
Smacks off too many chiefs, not enough Indians
And we sit a point above the drop zone (over reaction😬)
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 9, 2024 11:59:07 GMT
At the risk of possibly repeating all of the above, questions from FV need to be put to Evatt in that their investments (Collins Charles McAtee Schon) are not doing the business and what can Evatt change to get the best out of these investments? Same can be said of JDC, Randall (when fit) Sheehan, Dempsey, Less said about Evatt’s captain the better🤔🤔 My take on it for what it’s really worth, I was excited when we signed Charles way back when, I was doubly thrilled when we nabbed Collins and thought we’d hit box office with McAtee and Schon Now, I’m struggling to see any positives from all 4 put together when you consider how good they’ve been/were here and at their former clubs!! Is this because Evatt has over coached the life out of them or is it because they don’t know how to play the unsuccessful EvattBall system? Let’s face it, we don’t see smiles from any of them and they have a look of stress about them when they take to the field We have Manager Evatt Assistant Manager Atherton Assistant to the Assistant Stephen Crainey First Team Coach Matt Craddock Goalkeeping Coach Matt Gilkes Head of Sport Science Paul Walsh (no, not that one) And plenty of Analysts Smacks off too many chiefs, not enough Indians And we sit a point above the drop zone (over reaction😬) Fully agree with this rioch and I think that’s what I was trying to say. I don’t see a team, I no longer know what the players are and I’m not sure from what I see that they do. Is Schon a winger, wing back or wide midfield, same with Desmond. Are Collins and McAtee strikers, wide players or forward midfield players. Our defenders are central but not the best at it and I completely agree on Johnston, he’s nowhere near physical enough to play in a 3 but I’m sure would be fine with a strong left back with him like we had with Iredale. Matheson early on had pace and flew down the wing but latterly has lost that and now looks like Cogley mkII who has also lost his early edge. Its now being reported that some of the England players, especially the attackers, are glad to see the back of Southgate and his negativity and lack of use of the quality attackers we have and it just sounds so similar to our situation with Evatt. Surely players like Collins and McAtee want to get forward and use their skill rather than being constrained by Evatt’s system? I can’t remember the last time I saw a player smile and look happy, they all seem to be concentrating so hard on making sure they stay within Evatt’s system rather than looking for individual ways to break teams down and do something individual. Surely it can’t be a coincidence that all these players suddenly fail to deliver what they did previously and seem to have gone backwards and I do wonder if some of them have also given up on Evatt?
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Post by kenglowhite on Sept 9, 2024 15:58:06 GMT
I very much appreciate this thread as it explores squad strength and usage thereof. Supporters' best criticisms are best used in suggesting ways to use players, or how not to use them, or who played well, moderately or badly.
We have to assume until the owners decide otherwise that the best man currently managing the players is doing his best with what is available. It is OK to criticise players purchased as fitting in or otherwise, and also to
suggest whether they look good value or not. Until pressure on the management deems otherwise through consistently bad signings and performances it is best to live in hope of a turnaround in form and a move up the table.
Many fans believe form over that past year has not been consistently up to scratch, and we have made a modest start despite 8 signings. For the moment I hope for serious improvement and believe Ian Evatt is working hard to get
things right, but if FV deem it time for him to go will look for an improved replacement, but where from ?
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Post by OohMac on Sept 9, 2024 16:17:13 GMT
I was going to comment on that Whites. All Summer we were told how good camp was and how everyone was doing it for Southgate. 1 game in and now "players are playing with the freedom they didn't have"
Ian Evatt thinks the side believe in him. I've no doubt that the never get dropped probably due but I'm sure there will be a lot thinking I can't wait for him to go and i can play in a proper system.
Saw a highlight reel of Dions goals. What strikes me is how much energy he had. Proper pace and chasing defenders down. Seems really sluggish these days. Collins too I really rate him but as a No 10 it isn't working.
In fact through lack of options Evatt was forced to play Collins and JDB he described it as "fighting Armada with water pistols." Scored 5 against Reading and 5 against Oxford with those two. Guy couldn't see what was always there.
Admittedly the pair were home players and did little away but again that probably tells you more about the system exposed.
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 10, 2024 10:26:27 GMT
I was going to comment on that Whites. All Summer we were told how good camp was and how everyone was doing it for Southgate. 1 game in and now "players are playing with the freedom they didn't have" Ian Evatt thinks the side believe in him. I've no doubt that the never get dropped probably due but I'm sure there will be a lot thinking I can't wait for him to go and i can play in a proper system. Saw a highlight reel of Dions goals. What strikes me is how much energy he had. Proper pace and chasing defenders down. Seems really sluggish these days. Collins too I really rate him but as a No 10 it isn't working. In fact through lack of options Evatt was forced to play Collins and JDB he described it as "fighting Armada with water pistols." Scored 5 against Reading and 5 against Oxford with those two. Guy couldn't see what was always there. Admittedly the pair were home players and did little away but again that probably tells you more about the system exposed. Yes OM you do wonder if IE sees the same game as us sometimes? I could never understand the criticism by some of JDB who i always thought was a class above everyone else when it came to holding the ball up and bringing others into play yet he wasn’t scoring enough goals for some despite the work he did. Super Kev never scored a lot of goals but was appreciated for what he did for others and the team generally. People blame him for missing a “sitter” against Derby but fail to mention the outstanding save by their keeper unlike the two open goals Dion missed which cost us just as much. i don’t know what the players make of IE, maybe we won’t find out until he’s gone but I can’t believe that all the players are happy with the restraints on them under his system and I suspect with the competition for places in central defence and up front, especially when Lolos and CMG return from injury growing, some will be very unhappy with the game time they get. For me Evatt has brought all this on himself. I know we need strength in depth but that brings its own problems and I wonder if Evatt will be able to handle any discontent? For me we’re over strong in some areas and under strength in others, specifically LWB and in midfield in certain areas and despite our numbers up front we still don’t for me have a target man or physical presence to ruffle feather when the opposition are stubborn and the dreaded plan B is needed. Time will tell I suppose? 🥴
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Post by chip on Sept 11, 2024 18:35:12 GMT
It’s very hard to give an honest opinion after four games so I’ll wait until we have played maybe ten to fifteen games then our players should be fully upto speed and understanding of what Ian wants of them. We know what we want wins and more wins but we never get what we want. COYWM
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Post by chip on Sept 16, 2024 8:13:27 GMT
Saturday was diabolical I watched the game back as I missed it the first time. Even before they scored we didn’t seem as though the team was playing like a team then they scored and everyone went home it’s sad to watch. Ian comes across as it’s not his fault and he has the best win ratio than any other Bolton manager but he’s only done it in the lower leagues. Will he survive I think he will but is it going to change we will still get 20,000 on Saturday and I fear more of the same tough times ahead COYWM
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 16, 2024 9:20:05 GMT
Saturday was diabolical I watched the game back as I missed it the first time. Even before they scored we didn’t seem as though the team was playing like a team then they scored and everyone went home it’s sad to watch. Ian comes across as it’s not his fault and he has the best win ratio than any other Bolton manager but he’s only done it in the lower leagues. Will he survive I think he will but is it going to change we will still get 20,000 on Saturday and I fear more of the same tough times ahead COYWM I haven’t seen the full game chip just the extended highlights and they were enough for me. I think if Evatt is going well know later today but if he does the question is who replaces him. I see Stoke potted Schumacher this morning who I think would do well here so that could be an option. Of course we shouldn’t jump the gun, Sharon has entrusted Evatt with a lot of money this closed season and will want to give him time to get them up to speed but after Saturday you do have to wonder if the players really have bought into it. His outburst, reminiscent of his rant after Wembley hasn’t gone down well, especially implied criticism of the fans, so it’s going to be a tough ask to get them back on side and if he does stay and we get another performance anything like that against Reading the roof will come off and there will be no rescue for him. As I say, we should get to know later today if he is going so we’ll just have to wait and see. ☹️
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