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Post by Alptrotter on Sept 20, 2020 8:27:56 GMT
I'm not sure that I buy Evatt's argument that we were mugged ie we totally dominated and they snatched two goals out of nothing against the run of play. To me, our defence looked weak throughout and they could easily have scored more. The centre is slow and lacks focus, the flanks really still playing as wing backs thus leaving huge gaps to be exploited behind the lumbering central defence. A better team than Colchester would have hammered us. The midfield looks physically weak and small. In this league, I think we need one central midfielder with a bit of physical presence. I don't see Comley as good enough. I agree with davidm that much of our passing and possession has little impact on the game other than to slow it down. This raises the problem of our inability (save for a couple of occasions) to move quickly. We were promised a fast attack minded team. Where is it?
I accept that it's early days, but the squad still seems weak in key areas eg goalscoring threat, midfield strength and defensive organisation.
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Post by kenglowhite on Sept 20, 2020 9:30:52 GMT
I actually thought Santos had a much better game yesterday, and am a little mystified that he is getting all the flack for the first goal, when as I said in my half time whinge on the iFollow thread that the reason for Eastham having an open goal was the absence at the far post of our left wingback Gordon. Maybe there is a belief that Santos failed to clear the ball as the corner came over, but the gap at the post was left by Gordon. In an earlier post I referred to the Greaves/Mulhall system as being in the Eighties, but it was actually the Seventies, when we played wonderful football throughout that decade without actually reaching the First Division until 1978, again being relegated in '82. I agree that the strength of any team is its spine, and I think Evatt's set-up is basically wrong by setting up with the ageing Baptiste as pivot. He was last seen in Bolton playing right back for QPR, and I think that may still be his best position(why is Santos not occupying that spot?). I also agree that a strong central midfield defensive player is needed as Comley does not seem to fill the bill. With those two positions strengthened there is a good chance that Ian Evatt's system will work.
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 20, 2020 11:03:28 GMT
I can’t agree with you Kenglo that it wasn’t entirely Santos fault. Gordon was doing his job guarding the far post, it was surely Santos who should pick up the goal scorer, which he was nowhere near and this isn’t the first time he’s done it, or not done it to be more accurate. I do though agree with you about Baptiste who is too old and too slow to anchor the defence but no way would I put him at right back in place of Jones or Hickman, or even Brockbank. I also agree that we need a solid defensive midfielder which none of IEs signings look like they can fill. Maybe Spearing wasn’t such a bad shout after all? Anyway,, we’ve still got a couple of positions to fill so maybe IE has someone like that in mind.
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Post by andyl on Sept 20, 2020 14:00:02 GMT
Three or four points to offer
1. On goal two there was a team switch off. Doyle had just hit a weak shot after our best move. He stood still on the D. The keeper moved to throw to the wide right back, Doyle ambled across and put him under no pressure. The back played it forward. Doyle switched off, moved inside and left an easy ball to be played back to the same back who had all the time in the world to launch it forward.
It went over Baptiste. Santos was loosely in the middle. He could have sprinted back diagonally and supported Baptiste who if tackling would be sent off otherwise. Alternatively he could have sprinted and run to cover Crellin. He had noone to mark in the centre and should have been closer to Baptiste anyway given that Colchester only had the one man forward, the scorer. As it was Santos was in no man's land, hadn't observed the basics of cover, was too far forward from the off. In the event Santos moved back with no conviction playing himself out of any possible option and indeed he decelerates. Crellin on the other hand who has been accused or excused of a rush of blood did not charge out, he was properly out on the edge of his box, ready to run out and clear doing exactly as he should. If he made a mistake it was in taking two extra small steps forward but the forward executed the lob very well- a difficult skill. I do not think there was terribly much Crellin could have done to stop that goal, even if his final movement looked a bit tentative.
2. The first goal was a straightforward knock on. Santos was with his man and then he wasn't. Whilst I would agree that Santos was better than last week in that he didn't give the ball away so much and he didn't charge forward so much to do so, in terms of basic defence his two mistakes were the greatest of all. He is one of the players who doesn't look 100% match fit. Doyle is another. He could have prevented the first goal by a) scoring in the first place and b) being alert twice to the need to put pressure on the back.
3. Gordon does look to have a touch of speed going forward. Once in the second half he elft his marker for dead and he all but got a shot in in the opening moments.. I wouldn't fault him for not being on the post for the 1st goal. That's down to Evatt and the modern Zeitgeist
We have lost both those games because in moments of threat we haven't been quick enough, alert enough or switched on enough. Santos, Baptiste and Greenidge will ship lots of goals unless they get up to speed.
If somehow Evatt can get his players fit and on top of their games, then his way of playing should bring success. There were many points yesterday. I do agree with ws63 and others that if we could just make one class addition to that midfield it could transform everything. Or indeed if we could get a cool , calm experienced defender who knows where to be when and reads the game ( which Santos palpably does not) we could settle down and begin winning. Down the years and I think of the likes of Warwick Rimmer,, Roy Greaves, Alan Waldron, Dean Crombie , Paul Warhurst, Gudni Bergsson, Florent Laville, Paul Ritchie. All Gudni excepted and also Warhurst for different reasons are probably now only celebrated in Boltonian or first club memories but each in their way played either faultlessly and consistently and stabilised the team for everyone around either by positional sense, extra grit, experience or just presence. None of those mentioned were quick players.
Also we may find that a positional switch does the trick. Better players obviously but Campo and Hierro made their Boltonian legends in defensive midfield and had struggled at centre back. One season was turned around when Simon Charlton stepped in for a few games at centre half. Ricki Gardner had his best years when switched to left back. Even Henrik Pederson did a shift at left back. Little switches can make all the dfiference. Just maybe Santos has the attributes for centre midfield or maybe Gordon for left back.
But yes, if we could just make one inspired signing it could really help. Is it Zouma? Not so sure.
Incidentally, Lockett thrown on yesterday quite impressed me. I'd missed his 16 year old Coventry debut. It's just possible Evatt knows what he's about there? I was less sure re Mascoll and there's less in his pedigree. I remain unclear as to why Darcy is not in the reckoning.
For me though all this said I return to the theme of last week. Fitness, fitness fitness... It's letting this new team down just now.
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 20, 2020 15:33:26 GMT
Good post Andyl, I confer with almost all of it other than I think you’re being a little generous to Crellin as with two defenders chasing down their forward, I still think he was too far off his line and should have been much nearer his 6 yard box so as not to be lobbed. Actually I agree with you about the lob, it is a difficult thing to do, especially when runn8ng at pace and the lad took it well. As for Doyle, I think he’s one of those who’s just there to score goals. He doesn’t strike me as a workhorse or like SKD who was as good in defence as he was in attack, so I don’t think we can expect too much from him there. I’m ok with that as long as he puts his work in, in and around the box but so far I’ve not been greatly impressed. I actually think Delaney, or even Brockbank, could play the role in front of the back four. As you say, the likes of Hierro and Campo excelled when they took that position as did all the others you named right back to the very underrated Warwick Rimmer. What a wing half he was. I’m sure IE will eventually work it out and maybe Santos will turn out to be better than he looks at the moment, he definitely has something going forward, let’s just hope it starts next week?
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Post by OohMac on Sept 20, 2020 15:40:01 GMT
Once again for me the disappointment of Saturday has gone and Sunday is a day of reflection and roast spuds.
Watched the Man Utd match, way way off the pace against a Palace side that looked so much more fluid, free flowing. How much can be put down to Palace starting the season a week earlier.
Man Utd had a good post lockdown, have a pretty settled XI that know thier place and they were all at sea.
If thats happening to the elite(queue the anti Utd joke here) then imagine how far behind we are with 17 new faces & staff?
World cup winners and internationals throughout and could level the same things at them. Basic defending not done, didnt look creative, didnt look like they'd ever played together, even naive tactics and novice manager. Then think that our players come from non league.
Three weeks time if United play Palace 10 in a row, they probably win 6, draw 3 and 1 loss and i believe that in 3 or 4 weeks time we also will see the true side emerge.
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Post by kenglowhite on Sept 20, 2020 17:22:26 GMT
I agree hopefully with Oohm that results can soon change, but not soon enough, though I am not quite with Andy and 63 about the first goal and Santos. The scorer came in from the right to head home inside our left post, where I believe our left back, Gordon, should have been stationed. One of you suggest he was guarding the other post I believe we have never controlled midfield since Gartside prematurely got rid of the great Ivan Campo. He was converted from a centre half who wasn't quite big enough (is that why he grew his hair?) but after he left we quickly went downhill. Talking of a suitable player for that position, I see that Dale Stephens is currently out of the Brighton side. He could do a job for us, and he has local links, but could we afford him ?
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Post by whitesince63 on Sept 20, 2020 20:08:25 GMT
Probably not Kenglo, I’m afraid this salary cap is going to have a disastrous effect on the type of player we can expect to sign. There is now just too big a gap between wages at the top and the bottom and I’m afraid that’s where we are for the moment. That’s why we desperately need to get out of L2 at the first attempt because the longer we’re down here the more difficult it will be to get out. We’re seen as a big club at the moment because of our recent history but that will only last for so long. IE needs to pull out all the stops to get someone in who can run midfield. You are right about Campo. We never replaced Ivannand have paid for it just as we never replaced Roy Greaves for many years. These key players are almost impossible to replicate but let’s hope we can find one soon.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Sept 20, 2020 20:26:04 GMT
nice to see a reassuringly long Andy L post doesn't feel like the season has really got going til we see one of those !! " Crellin on the other hand who has been accused or excused of a rush of blood did not charge out, he was properly out on the edge of his box, ready to run out and clear doing exactly as he should."
totally agree with his point on this. the way Evatt wants to play..high defensive lines...Barrow-celona type tactics.... Crellins mistake is not being too deep, he's not high enough. Pep likes his keepers to be sweeper-keepers. good with ball at feet. can't say i've really noticed how good Crellin is in that aspect. in general terms i agree with Andy's points in his first post on this thread saying, he can't see us challenging for promotion with a defence that doesn't look like it can keep clean sheets. i've just checked the bookies odds and am quite surprised they haven't downgraded us more. currently : 2nd faves to win the lge. 7/1, behind salford 5/1 Doyle is still 2nd fave to be topscorer 8/1 behind Henderson of salford (9/4). and we're odds on to be in the top 7 (8/11). lump on if you fancy any of these. i'm staying well clear and increasingly tempted to bet against us. i'm not a blind faither. i want to see something to believe in it. no clean sheets and no lge goals hardly helps that cause. the bookies odds do just help my belief a bit as we know they rarely get it wrong. although are they keeping us low as they've had a flurry of money with all the hype and our price is artificially low talking of hype...this was funny....did you all see this one last week on Marc Iles twitter : overall, i also agree with Wots on page 2 when he said Evatt has played his part in building expectations. you can still manage them in a better way while still being positive enough to draw season ticket money in. more balanced. eg.... we're aiming for promotion but it's a marathon not a sprint and it might take 6-8 weeks to be fully where i want us to be etc. take the pressure off. tell the players a different message to keep them on it. if it goes better than expected...it's all forgotten about & no-one cares.
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Post by realtrottersforever on Sept 20, 2020 22:08:49 GMT
spot where the right back , Jones is here 1.37. Colchester attack down our right flank. yes..that's him 10 yards inside the opposition half. you can't see it fully from these mini highlights....you see it much better from the extended highlights in the ifollow section of bwfc. ( but i can't post them on here) in that longer vid..the times to look for are 7.30...keeper kicks ball out short to their left back position. absolutelyno pressure on the ball... freeze it at 7.37 Jones is already 1 yard + wrong side of him. within 2secs he's lost 10 yards to the runner. fair enough he's partly left him to Santos but he's still trying pretty hard to get back, but can't. you can't be so high up, playing offside & not covering your man if there's no pressure on the ball. you aren't in control . www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/9/Seasons/8306/Stages/18827/TeamStatistics/England-League-Two-2020-2021early days for these stats as we've played 2 sides that finished top half last season. but just as a benchmark ..here goes.. shots per game rankings. best has 20 per game. worst has 5 per game. we're in 19th on approx 10 per game. and vs Colchester 10 is exactly what we had. shots on target... best has 7. worst has 1. we've averaged 2. (21st place) and in this last game..we had exactly that again 2 shots conceded : best only concede 4.5 worst conceded 18 we're in 10th place ..conceding 13... ( in last game we conceded 11 ) we are top for possession and pass success %. that'll be one interesting thing to watch if we can get in front...we should be able to hold the ball better and see games out. one of my main gripes with Parky's style was inability to hold leads... direct football is all well and good...but BSA was much smarter about holding leads. Parky would just keep hoofing it , and inviting pressure, when simple 5 yards back and square balls were on.
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Post by andyl on Sept 21, 2020 8:21:12 GMT
Yes and good to see your appetite for posting returning, rtf. lots of good stats.
Re the clip at 1.37 I couldn't see where Hickman was but that's key. If Jones and Hickman are to play in tandem they have to cover each other and press. But in the clip again Santos is too central and the winger goes by as if Santos is treading water and again Santos freezes whilst Jones does his level best to get back but to no avail.. This is all about teamwork. Santos would probably say that he couldn't go out wide because Baptiste will be in the middle and the greater risks are in the middle... An of course we are used to 4 at the back with full backs tucked in and opposition flank players left to our wingers to cover. Hence in relatively recent years we have seen the likes of Chungy, Eagles, Feeney, Morais playing deeper and deeper and being asked to function as full backs.
In our Div 1 promotion season under Phil Parkinson Morais and Dervite pretty much from Shrewsbury away onwards got their act together fairly well. The 3 at the back allowed Le Fondre to feature whereas 4s for example had converted Clough and Armstrong to left wing back, even full back roles. It's a paradox really how four at the back this last decade has paralysed wingers and forced them on the defensive because of modern box protecting tactics and stay at home keepers whereas three at the back as brilliantly illustrated by Wigan in their really good Premier League escape and above by Dervite, Wheater, Beavers liberated flank players.
To return to theme I quite like the Evatt possession based game, the high lines, the linking and interchanging flank players and the maintenance of two up front. It may come good. But it absolutely relies on a solid, reasonably mobile back three with the outer players able to cover the flanks when needed. That the goalkeeper also sweeps should give extra freedom. Nothwithstanding my main point in recent posts which is about the importance of playing to systems that levels of fitness can sustain, for example not combining a high pressing game with excessive midfield and defensive fluidity if you can't sustain it eg Doyle on Saturday, it's critical that the central back three play well. Thus far at the back we have not really had a back three-- we have had wing backs trying to get back. So Saturday was almost a four at the back with absentees - commentators including Iles seemed unable to classify what the defensive strategy was. Was it a 4 or a 3? But never mind Iles and Co,, Santos and Baptiste clearly had no clue what and where they were playing. Hence Baptiste stranded upfield against a pacy winger with no cover from Santos on Goal 2 and Santos again running parallel in your clip, rtf.
To my mind the hopelessly unfit Santos, Greenidge and the lumbering Baptiste are not remotely up to speed in the new system and through both games seen to date, even though especially in the last game we had possession advantags, a bit of nip on the flanks and some good Delfouneso touches and a hint of Doyle's potential, every time the opposition came forward they looked like scoring either with chasms on the flanks, central midfielders out of possession and so on. So much for Messrs Phoenix and Evatt buying to a blueprint. How on earth do a) Santos, who last week charged forward headlessly and looked terror stricken in possession launching it forward to nowhere and this week ran parallel with and offered no cover to the flanks either side and b) Baptiste shoulders slumped, ponderous and even if winning most one to ones he got to- which he did on Saturday-- fit the model?
Last year v Coventry, the best team in the league Zouma and Edwards and notably Brockbank played superbly and gave everyone else confidence from the back with support from Alexander and all present were filled with optimism. We need something of the same again. Maybe Greenidge could get fit. Maybe Santos can improve ( although I have doubts unless in midfield). Baptiste is beyond hope for the model Evatt wants.. So principally I think Evatt has to get this defensive conundrum sorted out.Maybe Delaney can play a part, maybe we need Zouma and maybe Brockbank can step up or maybe we need a Crombie or Laville figure bought to stabilise things. Until he does sort this I think we will give encouragement to opponents and here I note that neither Forest Green nor Colchester we re able to field an attack and had ad hoc solutions in place. Had they better attacking prowess certainly Forest Green but also Colchester had more than enough free chances to bury us comprehensively?
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