Post by andyl on Mar 19, 2018 19:44:48 GMT
It's a shame really that the 'best victory of the season' thread - has as so many evolved into a debate about PP and the justification of various long held convictions on either side ofthe argument, pro and anti our manager. So just maybe a thread under that heading can hoover up some of argument and even re-position it a little?
A few years ago in the midst of the Megson out furore, I looked at the varying attributes the modern manager required and might now revise that list to include- financial wheeling and dealing, PR and media, tactical ability, sports science knowledge, man management capacity, morale boosting oratorical skills or morale boosting intimidatory skills and we might throw in patience, constancy, bearing and dignity, success-bringing or pot winning. It's an awe-inspiring list. No wonder we have worked our way since Big Sam through Messrs Lee, Megson, Coyle, Freedman, Lennon, Phillips temporarily (twice, with Peter Reid for a bit) and now PP. And no wonder managers come and go with rapidity - can anyone name Watford's managers since 2016? ( A rhetorical question)
Yet under the Andersons we have seen remarkable loyalty to PP and perseverance with him, despite a worse run of results at the start of this season than any of those others lost their jobs for? Too expensive to sack? A wish to be loyal and allow time?
And despite embargo we got back from Div 1 at the first attempt and since the tenth game this season have been in mid table form in terms of results. Sky & Channel 5 pundits hailed the job he has done as remarkable and were fulsome in PP's praises. And just maybe the remarkable adjective is a touch hyperbolic if we contrast and compare with Neil Harris, Chris Wilder or even Mick McCarthy and certainly Nuno at Wolves . Or even Bruce at Villa or Wagner at Huddersfield. Or Smith at Brentford? Yet in many ways coming back from the brink is nothing less than remarkable. And even more so if it's all about the millions- but is it? Well maybe at Wolves and Villa but not Millwall and Sheff Utd? Perspective is needed before praise becomes hyperbole
Big Sam pioneered Sports Science. Coyle pool? Freedman talked rotation and did a lot better than most in his first year but it fell apart for him v Fulham as it had for Megson v Hull. Coyle fell apart on the end of Jonny Evans 'boot and Stu Holden's injuries. Lennon began well, brought back Eidur, brought on Clough and then got into the tabloids and never recovered.
And if PP has been rightly feted the elephant in the room of the debate has been that on the pitch most games won or lost have been horrible to watch with limited possession and lots of panicky defence and many late goals conceded. It sounds churlish to say it but is there a worse fan experience than to be one up with 20 to go- nail biting, agonising, heart racing?
We cannot of course know precisely what limitations PP has been under. He has operated under financial constraints in the non transfer market but nevertheless put together a squad of considerably Premier and first division experience. Wheater, Karacan, Le Fondre, Buckley, Pratley, Noone have all played for teams finishing seasons in the top six of the championship. several others have done it in Division 1 with us or others. Some have Premier League pedigree or have been on the books of Premier League clubs e.g Morais and some still are Robinson, Burke, Flanagan and Derik has been at Real Madrid . We also had Armstrong now banging them in at Blackburn as he did at Coventry but for us played wide left.
So we can't exactly say that he has managed a team of journeymen. Rather that he has assembled a good collection of players with something to prove, albeit carrying injury or short of match fitness and he has now added our overseas German and Nigerian recruits . So full marks, I think to the Andersons but also PP in the wheeling and dealing in adversity stakes . And as I've said before it is clearly PP calling the shots on whom we sign and whom we don't, subject to resources.
There is another that I doubt our previously sacked managers confronted quite so often.. The deals to gather these players will have been much more complex than ever before because of our financial constraints. We saw two years ago Spearing sidelined because of the unaffordability of appearance payments. Now we have an assembly of loanees some of whom we will pay more for the more they play and some the less. We can't make loan payments upfront and are at the mercy of some of these EPL clubs who want guaranteed games and penalise non use; others want money per appearance--) and maybe some of our other retainedplayers have complexity in their contracts? For each Darby or Little we have a ragbag of better players with strings attached?
So the manager these days in addition to overseeing training, watching oppositions, preparing tactics, selecting teams also, I imagine, has to juggle what he can afford much as a Fantasy League Manager. And if that is guesswork on my part I suspect it's only the half of it in what has become a very complex job undertaken by several highly paid highly qualified individuals in most clubs and will have been operated on a shoestring by us
.
So my argument would be that PP has probably done a fantastic all round managerial job and is closer to being an all round manager than anyone we have had since Big Sam. On the field he has done really well in training individuals to work as a team when we don't have the ball. But in possession as yet we have much to do. That being the case if he is being judged on entertainment value and on field success there is as yet nothing extraordinary even if it is already creditable. And it has been improving since Madine left presumably relaxing some financial constraints and certainly obliging fewer aerial punts.
But then what do we expect? Would another do better long-term? Doubtful? will PP take us to the top of the championship in the next three years. Also doubtful? But maybe unrealistic? The conversation now i To my mind he has if I look back at reports had some tactical successthat avoiding relegation will be a major achievement. Not sure I buy that but we have had successes of note this year and PP should be praised for those. Web may also have had several instances of questionable judgment.. But then who hasn't in the championship? Maybe we ask too much?
A few years ago in the midst of the Megson out furore, I looked at the varying attributes the modern manager required and might now revise that list to include- financial wheeling and dealing, PR and media, tactical ability, sports science knowledge, man management capacity, morale boosting oratorical skills or morale boosting intimidatory skills and we might throw in patience, constancy, bearing and dignity, success-bringing or pot winning. It's an awe-inspiring list. No wonder we have worked our way since Big Sam through Messrs Lee, Megson, Coyle, Freedman, Lennon, Phillips temporarily (twice, with Peter Reid for a bit) and now PP. And no wonder managers come and go with rapidity - can anyone name Watford's managers since 2016? ( A rhetorical question)
Yet under the Andersons we have seen remarkable loyalty to PP and perseverance with him, despite a worse run of results at the start of this season than any of those others lost their jobs for? Too expensive to sack? A wish to be loyal and allow time?
And despite embargo we got back from Div 1 at the first attempt and since the tenth game this season have been in mid table form in terms of results. Sky & Channel 5 pundits hailed the job he has done as remarkable and were fulsome in PP's praises. And just maybe the remarkable adjective is a touch hyperbolic if we contrast and compare with Neil Harris, Chris Wilder or even Mick McCarthy and certainly Nuno at Wolves . Or even Bruce at Villa or Wagner at Huddersfield. Or Smith at Brentford? Yet in many ways coming back from the brink is nothing less than remarkable. And even more so if it's all about the millions- but is it? Well maybe at Wolves and Villa but not Millwall and Sheff Utd? Perspective is needed before praise becomes hyperbole
Big Sam pioneered Sports Science. Coyle pool? Freedman talked rotation and did a lot better than most in his first year but it fell apart for him v Fulham as it had for Megson v Hull. Coyle fell apart on the end of Jonny Evans 'boot and Stu Holden's injuries. Lennon began well, brought back Eidur, brought on Clough and then got into the tabloids and never recovered.
And if PP has been rightly feted the elephant in the room of the debate has been that on the pitch most games won or lost have been horrible to watch with limited possession and lots of panicky defence and many late goals conceded. It sounds churlish to say it but is there a worse fan experience than to be one up with 20 to go- nail biting, agonising, heart racing?
We cannot of course know precisely what limitations PP has been under. He has operated under financial constraints in the non transfer market but nevertheless put together a squad of considerably Premier and first division experience. Wheater, Karacan, Le Fondre, Buckley, Pratley, Noone have all played for teams finishing seasons in the top six of the championship. several others have done it in Division 1 with us or others. Some have Premier League pedigree or have been on the books of Premier League clubs e.g Morais and some still are Robinson, Burke, Flanagan and Derik has been at Real Madrid . We also had Armstrong now banging them in at Blackburn as he did at Coventry but for us played wide left.
So we can't exactly say that he has managed a team of journeymen. Rather that he has assembled a good collection of players with something to prove, albeit carrying injury or short of match fitness and he has now added our overseas German and Nigerian recruits . So full marks, I think to the Andersons but also PP in the wheeling and dealing in adversity stakes . And as I've said before it is clearly PP calling the shots on whom we sign and whom we don't, subject to resources.
There is another that I doubt our previously sacked managers confronted quite so often.. The deals to gather these players will have been much more complex than ever before because of our financial constraints. We saw two years ago Spearing sidelined because of the unaffordability of appearance payments. Now we have an assembly of loanees some of whom we will pay more for the more they play and some the less. We can't make loan payments upfront and are at the mercy of some of these EPL clubs who want guaranteed games and penalise non use; others want money per appearance--) and maybe some of our other retainedplayers have complexity in their contracts? For each Darby or Little we have a ragbag of better players with strings attached?
So the manager these days in addition to overseeing training, watching oppositions, preparing tactics, selecting teams also, I imagine, has to juggle what he can afford much as a Fantasy League Manager. And if that is guesswork on my part I suspect it's only the half of it in what has become a very complex job undertaken by several highly paid highly qualified individuals in most clubs and will have been operated on a shoestring by us
.
So my argument would be that PP has probably done a fantastic all round managerial job and is closer to being an all round manager than anyone we have had since Big Sam. On the field he has done really well in training individuals to work as a team when we don't have the ball. But in possession as yet we have much to do. That being the case if he is being judged on entertainment value and on field success there is as yet nothing extraordinary even if it is already creditable. And it has been improving since Madine left presumably relaxing some financial constraints and certainly obliging fewer aerial punts.
But then what do we expect? Would another do better long-term? Doubtful? will PP take us to the top of the championship in the next three years. Also doubtful? But maybe unrealistic? The conversation now i To my mind he has if I look back at reports had some tactical successthat avoiding relegation will be a major achievement. Not sure I buy that but we have had successes of note this year and PP should be praised for those. Web may also have had several instances of questionable judgment.. But then who hasn't in the championship? Maybe we ask too much?
