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Post by megsontilidie on May 4, 2016 21:44:13 GMT
www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/bolw.htmhere's the historical figures to offer a bit of a clue : as usual these things never copy across well, so i'll explain what the columns are. year e.g 2015 is for the 2014/15 year. next fig is our lge position that year. ie 18th next fig is the tier/div we were in then. next fig 38 presumably refers to our position within the 92 FL clubs (ie 20 in PL + 18) next is the average attendance.eg 15,413. the next figure 27 seems to be our attendance ranking in the 92. ignore the other figs to the Right. they refer to fa cup or lge cup or euro cup rounds we reached. our best ever was 1951/52 with 35,832by 1960 that had fell by almost 10k to 25k + despite still being in the top flight. 60/61 must have been a grind as that didn't half choke off the support... leading to an attendance (avg) in 61/62 of approx 17,500. again still in the top flight. the drop to tier 3 footie hardly knocked any off in 1971/72..mainly because it'd already fell to 8706 down in the lower regions of tier/div 2 there must have been a feel good factor as that led to almost 6k increase in 72/73 from around 8000 to almost 14,000 avg. by the late 70's we were getting around 22 to 23k and then the demise. down to 4847 in 85/86..absolutely die- hards only . the attendance increase the next year could be counted on the fingers of one hand- just 4 people. to 4851. funnily enough the attendace didn't bottom out in the 4th tier. it rose slightly. then t he revival..the modern day high coming in 03/04 with a high of 26,795in BSA's final season this had already slipped to 23500 ( approx) a 5500 drop when we got relegated. followed by another 2k drop. 2015 18 2 38 15.413 27 4 3 2014 14 2 34 16.141 32 4 2 2013 7 2 27 18.034 30 4 2 2012 18 1 18 23.670 19 QF 4 2011 14 1 14 22.870 24 SF 3 2010 14 1 14 21.881 26 5 4 2009 13 1 13 22.486 23 3 2 2008 16 1 16 20.901 28 3 4 UEFA R4 2007 7 1 7 23.606 19 4 3 2006 8 1 8 25.455 15 5 QF UEFA R3 2005 6 1 6 26.006 18 QF 3 2004 8 1 8 26.795 18 3 Final 2003 17 1 17 25.017 23 3 2 2002 16 1 16 25.097 17 4 QF 2001 3 2 23 16.106 30 5 1 2000 6 2 26 14.384 32 SF SF 1999 6 2 26 18.240 23 3 4 1998 18 1 18 24.352 17 3 4 1997 1 2 21 15.826 24 4 QF 1996 20 1 20 18.822 17 4 4 1995 3 2 25 13.029 29 3 Final 1994 14 2 36 10.498 33 QF 2 AIC 1993 2 3 48 9.062 36 5 2 AMC 1992 13 3 59 6.030 54 5 2 AMC 1991 4 3 48 7.277 42 4 2 AMC 1990 6 3 50 7.286 46 1 3 AMC QF 1989 10 3 54 5.528 53 2 1 AMC Winners 1988 3 4 71 5.018 53 3 1 1987 21 3 65 4.851 53 3 1 1986 18 3 62 4.847 46 1 2 AMC Final 1985 17 3 61 4.951 48 1 3 AMC QF 1984 10 3 54 5.892 47 3 1 1983 22 2 44 7.552 41 3 2 1982 19 2 41 7.597 39 4 1 1981 18 2 40 9.847 38 3 2 1980 22 1 22 16.353 30 5 2 ASC QF 1979 17 1 17 23.200 15 3 3 1978 1 2 23 22.877 20 5 4 1977 4 2 26 21.795 19 3 SF ASC QF 1976 4 2 26 19.390 23 5 2 1975 10 2 32 13.800 31 3 2 1974 11 2 33 15.942 28 4 3 1973 1 3 45 13.928 29 5 2 1972 7 3 51 8.173 55 4 4 1971 22 2 44 8.706 51 3 3 1970 16 2 38 10.041 49 3 2 1969 17 2 39 10.536 47 4 2 1968 12 2 34 11.487 43 3 3 1967 9 2 31 13.235 39 4 2 1966 9 2 31 12.005 44 4 3 1965 3 2 25 14.650 35 5 2 1964 21 1 21 17.018 31 4 3 1963 18 1 18 19.406 22 3 2 1962 11 1 11 17.519 25 3 1 1961 18 1 18 21.670 22 4 4 1960 6 1 6 25.998 20 4 1959 4 1 4 27.659 17 QF 1958 15 1 15 22.029 27 Winners 1957 9 1 9 25.219 16 3 1956 8 1 8 27.964 14 4 1955 18 1 18 28.370 15 4 1954 5 1 5 34.216 12 QF 1953 14 1 14 32.066 14 Final 1952 5 1 5 35.832 12 3 1951 8 1 8 33.142 14 4 1950 16 1 16 29.789 24 4 1949 14 1 14 34.113 19 3 1948 17 1 17 29.408 23 3 1947 18 1 18 28.692 18 4 1946 SF 1939 8 1 8 23.073 18 3 1938 7 1 7 25.012 13 3 1937 20 1 20 22.518 16 5 1936 13 1 13 26.868 9 3 1935 2 2 24 20.342 16 SF 1934 3 2 25 13.767 31 QF 1933 21 1 21 13.203 28 5 1932 17 1 17 15.843 21 3 1931 14 1 14 15.701 20 4 1930 15 1 15 18.047 21 3 1929 14 1 14 19.419 19 Winners 1928 7 1 7 19.383 19 4 1927 4 1 4 21.603 15 5 1926 8 1 8 20.437 14 Winners 1925 3 1 3 22.935 10 2 1924 4 1 4 20.290 15 2 1923 13 1 13 21.870 13 Winners 1922 6 1 6 25.295 12 2 1921 3 1 3 34.400 9 1 1920 6 1 6 23.300 14 1 1915 17 1 17 13.580 10 SF 1914 6 1 6 25.055 7 3 1913 8 1 8 20.920 8 1 1912 4 1 4 19.135 7 3 1911 2 2 22 9.810 26 1 1910 20 1 20 12.445 13 1 1909 1 2 21 12.850 16 1 1908 19 1 19 14.515 13 3 1907 6 1 6 14.960 12 3 1906 6 1 6 19.930 3 1 1905 2 2 20 12.385 12 QF 1904 7 2 25 9.195 18 Final 1903 18 1 18 10.530 13 1 1902 12 1 12 10.200 9 2 1901 10 1 10 9.700 10 2 1900 2 2 20 4.875 23 1 1899 17 1 17 7.075 17 1 1898 11 1 11 8.190 9 QF 1897 8 1 8 8.360 4 2 1896 4 1 4 9.535 3 SF 1895 10 1 10 7.375 8 QF 1894 13 1 13 5.350 14 Final 1893 5 1 5 5.790 12 1 1892 3 1 3 7.500 3 1 1891 5 1 5 7.190 6 1 1890 9 1 9 5.325 7 SF 1889 5 1 5 5.305
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Post by megsontilidie on May 4, 2016 21:47:43 GMT
www.soccerstats.com/attendance.asp?league=england2don't know if these are official, but these are figures for this season. first col is the main one. 2nd is lowest, then highest then total..then stadium capacity and % capacity fill etc 1 Derby County 29,654 26,834 33,010 652,395 33,597 88.3% 2 Brighton & Hove 25,583 21,397 30,292 588,415 30,750 83.2% 3 Middlesbrough 24,209 19,966 32,870 532,613 34,742 69.7% 4 Sheffield Wed 22,640 18,706 31,843 520,738 39,814 56.9% 5 Leeds Utd 22,446 17,103 29,311 516,261 40,204 55.8% 6 Wolverhampton 19,914 17,387 24,238 438,121 30,852 64.6% 7 Nottm Forest 19,675 16,449 27,551 452,543 30,576 64.4% 8 Ipswich Town 18,989 16,488 23,615 436,756 30,311 62.7% 9 Birmingham City 17,602 14,366 21,380 404,867 30,009 58.7% 10 Fulham 17,582 14,283 20,316 386,816 25,700 68.4% 11 Reading 17,285 12,949 21,581 397,556 24,200 71.4% 12 Hull City 16,901 10,167 21,842 371,840 25,586 66.1% 13 Burnley 16,823 14,928 20,478 386,936 21,401 78.6% 14 Cardiff City 16,255 12,729 28,680 357,631 33,280 48.8% 15 QP Rangers 15,962 14,007 18,031 351,178 18,360 86.9% 16 Charlton 15,606 12,294 21,506 343,342 27,111 57.6% 17 Bristol City 15,291 14,291 15,854 351,705 16,600 92.1% 18 Bolton 15,056 12,257 18,423 346,299 28,723 52.4% 19 Blackburn 14,171 12,002 21,029 311,773 31,367 45.2% 20 Milton Keynes 13,052 9,402 21,345 287,147 30,500 42.8% 21 Preston 12,787 9,963 19,852 281,328 23,404 54.6% 22 Huddersfield 12,595 9,736 17,118 277,108 24,500 51.4% 23 Brentford 10,309 8,363 12,301 237,120 12,301 83.8% 24 Rotherham 10,013 8,534 11,658 230,318 12,021
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Post by megsontilidie on May 4, 2016 22:24:18 GMT
www.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=525this is an interesting one..Lge 1 avg attendances. (table copied unhelpfully again ..sorry !) don't be thinking we'll be top. with Sheffield getting almost 20,000. , we'll be lucky to get half of that. Blackpool got 7000 so we should get at least that. Wigan got 9000. that's a reasonable target..but this has been such a shocker of a season, far worse than their relegation season. time will tell .much depends on a decent managerial appointment and player retentions, arrivals and departures. Sky Bet League One 15/16 Home attendance Clubs AVG Total HIG LOW Sheffield United Sheffield United 19,729 434,033 24,777 17,623 Bradford City Bradford City 17,966 395,260 19,336 16,786 Coventry City Coventry City 12,570 289,119 17,779 9,942 Barnsley Barnsley 9,499 218,468 13,571 8,227 Millwall Millwall 9,108 209,473 12,419 7,657 Wigan Athletic Wigan Athletic 9,046 199,013 10,890 7,794 Swindon Town Swindon Town 7,382 162,403 9,240 6,311 Blackpool Blackpool 7,052 162,185 9,226 5,960 Southend United Southend United 7,001 161,022 10,279 5,212 Chesterfield Chesterfield 6,676 153,553 9,402 5,227 Doncaster Rovers Doncaster Rovers 6,338 139,440 10,168 4,693 Gillingham Gillingham 6,177 135,888 7,511 4,823 Shrewsbury Town Shrewsbury Town 5,407 124,372 7,019 4,057 Walsall Walsall 5,382 123,778 7,176 3,868 Peterborough United Peterborough United 5,422 119,273 7,153 3,544 Port Vale Port Vale 4,830 106,252 6,822 3,256 Crewe Alexandra Crewe Alexandra 4,551 104,684 6,751 3,094 Oldham Athletic Oldham Athletic 4,335 95,365 6,117 3,301 Burton Albion Burton Albion 4,089 94,052 5,512 2,666 Colchester United Colchester United 4,168 91,687 9,222 2,493 S****horpe United S****horpe United 3,907 89,852 7,275 2,596 Bury Bury 3,759 82,700 6,470 2,180 Fleetwood Town Fleetwood Town 3,308 72,776 5,123 2,133 Rochdale Rochdale 3,098 71,259 5,690 1,767
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Post by andyl on May 5, 2016 7:55:35 GMT
This is a complex conundrum for the new owners and they did not deserve ticket price criticism nor top tier criticism
If and it's a big if we get out of the blocks quickly then I think attendance from home fans may be similar to the last couple of games
But there will be no big away fan numbers.
So I suspect the average may be around 11000?
There is an associated question re the habits of season ticket holders. If games are poor they won't necessarily attend .
In the dark days at Burnden I'd occasionally be there in attendances of 7,6 or even 5000. I used to joke that the club would do better to give the players a programme with the fans ' names on it than the norm.!
But that was Burnden, run down and often miserable..by then. Also it was after a long and dispiriting generation influencing decline. The excitement of the late 70s wasn't perhaps sustained enough to halt the drift.
Here until these last few years there has been progress pretty much 88-2010. Time for the club to have built new loyalties to replace those older ones?
But who can say. A Euro 2016 England victory would have an influence.
In sum I'd guess 11000 with some low points in the 9000s
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Post by megsontilidie on May 5, 2016 10:16:26 GMT
thanks for the reply Andy. i'm always wary about putting on long posts especially stats based. can be off-putting to some but good to get the ball rolling. at the heart of it, is an issue we're all interested in.
fascinating just to look back at the raw stats and try and figure out which players, managers or other factors were the key to the various upturns and downturn swings.
pricing certainly was a factor for the drop off at the end of BSA's time. hard to know how much to attribute to dissatisfaction with the style of football, which was also offered as a reason at the time. there was a 1500 upturn at the start of Megson's first full season. i can only think that was largely due to the record signing of Elmander.
you can understand how the previous board got a bit muddled thinking at this time. they had seen falling gates under BSA ( at the end). so they responded by cutting themselves...i.e Sammy Lee clearly a cheap option. gates fell.
(remember also ,Gartside trumpeted the better quality passing football that Little Sam would bring, as if he felt the long ball style had been at the root of the fall in gates. )
they spent big with Elmander...gates rose.
they wrongly got the impression that they could spend their way out of trouble.
looking back at the 1950's as i did above. gates fell from the record high in 1952 of 35,000 to 17000 by 1962. almost a 20,000 drop in 10 years despite still being in the top flight !!!. what happened there ? novelty wore off ? prices rise too much ? competition from other clubs..rise of Man utd etc ?
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Post by OohMac on May 5, 2016 13:24:47 GMT
But with Burnden the lack of fans didn't necessarily detract too much from the atmosphere. You could still stand in proximity to the masses and feel like the crowd is ok. With the ReeCron the empty seats and scattered crowds really highlight a bad atmosphere.
When you start hearing the players shouting orders it all feels so pre-season, plus for most it's either a taxi and train, drive and expensive parking. In the centre you could probably decide at 2 o clock if you were going to bother these days it's a real long day and when it's a poor match it's too much to ask people to give up their money and free time.
Then there's The Harvester!
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Post by andyl on May 5, 2016 13:53:47 GMT
Interesting statistics. I think there will have been a post WW2 love for the normality of football and few distractions. Maybe 1953 was a highpoint?
I was first taken to a game aged 6 in 1958. My memories are of a packed Manchester Rd stand,whirring rattles big enough to hurt,slow handclaps and stamping feet when games were dull. There was a brass band before the game. And I have a retrospective feel of crowds. Certainly walking back up the Manchester Rd or the other way to a parked car was always in crowds. Evening games seemed even more popular. I guess here I'm supporting Ooom's point about the illusory feel of a crowd presence
From 1961 on post Lofthouse things declined . Early on I stood on the embankment. That was never very crowded except for big games. But the 60s became the era of TV as an alternative . We didn't have ITV till I think 1962. I suspect this was a factor. The cinema Pathe newsreels showed glimpses of football but only on FA CUP Final Day and for internationals was there tv football
Maybe 1966 gave football a boost but not so much at Burnden?
Like ooomacron I enjoyed the romance of Burnden but for much of the early 70s and pretty much all the 80s it was soulless and that Normid supermarket made the place feel worse than ever the Reebok/Macron has.
Yes we got a boost in the 90s with cup runs..but how many season ticket holders were there.
Next year will be difficult and the club will need to work hard to sell match day tickets to boost numbers. But I do think there is a goodly core of diehards nurtured in the 90s and thereafter. We probably have a year or two before there is much greater fall off and especially if we are doing well?
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Post by realtrottersforever on May 5, 2016 13:58:32 GMT
I think you may have a point there MTID about the rise of Man Utd.
In 1952 they won their first title for 41 years, in 1956/57 they were the first English Club to take part in European Cup, of course in 1958 there was the Munich Air Disaster, the 1958 F A Cup final that we won, and from 1960 onwards Matt Busby continued to re-build the team, winning the F A Cup in 1963 and the rest is history as they say.
Also the rise of Liverpool FC. In 1959 Shankly was appointed as manager of the then Div 2 team, in 1961/62 they were promoted to Division 1 and two seasons later they won the championship and qualified for European Cup and once again the rest is history.
The move up to the then Reebok possibly paid a part in some fans not retaining their season tickets, but that of course co-incided with our Premier League era so many "Good Time Charlie" fans jumped on the band waggon to swell numbers again, but as the standard of our football declined the pull of the teams in the upper reaches of the PL probably didn't counteract those "not died in the wool fans" who have drifted away again.
I think we will be lucky to see many matches with attendances much over 10000 especially as many of the teams, as Andy says, won't have such great away support.
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Post by andyl on May 5, 2016 14:05:43 GMT
I think also crowds have changed in character. I doubt there are statistics breaking crowds down by gender or ethnicity..or indeed nationality. I cannot remember or did not notice the numbers of female attendees in the 50s and 60s but I wouldn't be surprised if they were relatively few compared to modern crowds? Maybe the very welcome increase in female participation and the TV presence and success of the England team and women's football generally could bring new attendees? Have Bolton got a team?
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Post by megsontilidie on May 5, 2016 14:13:18 GMT
you won't need to worry about traffic problems next year O.M. not just because of our drop off, but as Andy rightly said, it's the lack of away fans that has a double hit. Bury, Rochdale and Fleetwood all getting under 4000 as the link above shows. talking of Gartsides attitude to the Sammy lee appointment, as i was above. I managed to dig up some of his Cringe-worthy quotes from the time plus the repsonse of a very knowing Liverpool fan. pity one of them was "just a fan", and another had the exalted position of Chairman...would have been better the other way round . www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.php?/topic/38328-sammy-lee-new-bolton-manager/see the post by RoboRiise : Lee is 'better' than Big Sam - GartsideMon 30 Apr, 04:45 PM Bolton chairman Phil Gartside believes Sammy Lee is better equipped to take the club forward than Sam Allardyce.Former England and Liverpool coach Lee has been appointed manager for "as long as he wants" after stepping up from his role as assistant boss. Bolton moved swiftly to promote the 48-year-old after Allardyce's shock decision to quit after seven and a half years in charge. Gartside is convinced the right man is in place. He said: "You take a key man out of a team but you replace him with someone who is even better. That's where I am at. "I have known Sammy a long time. He is a good coach with great contacts. If you look at his credentials to what Sam's were when he joined, they are better. "It's a better job today and I'm not sure you would have given it to Sam Allardyce now. Sammy has a reputation beyond where Sam was in terms of his international playing career. "People do not get rewarded with coaching jobs like the one's Sammy's had unless you are good at what you do. He is very professional and a real players' man with a fantastic reputation." Lee was also instrumental in former Liverpool strikers Nicolas Anelka and El-Hadji Diouf signing long-terms contracts at the Reebok Stadium, according to Gartside. He said: "If you ask why Nicolas Anelka came to Bolton, he played at Liverpool under Sammy. "One of the most important things about Diouf arriving here was because he knew about Sammy. "You have got to look a bit deeper into what has happened at Bolton." Lee signed an open-ended contract after rejecting an offer to coach England Under-21s on a full time basis last August. Gartside said: "I was criticised for giving Sam a ten-year contract, so I just suppose I will carry on being silly. "Sammy can stay as long as he wants. He was coaching England and had a great reputation. He has proved that while he has been here. "Let's not kid ourselves, it (our progress) is not down to one man. It's down to a team of people and Sammy has been an integral part of that team. I had no hesitation in appointing him. "He turned down the Under-21s because he wanted to concentrate on his work at Bolton. That shows the measure of the man." Gartside gave a clue as to why Allardyce stepped down but dismissed suggestions it was due to lack of funds. Instead he believes it could be due to the possibility of another European campaign. Gartside said: "We enjoyed unprecedented success with Sam and getting a place in the UEFA Cup was the pinnacle of his achievements. "I do not think Bolton fans thought we would be playing Marseille or Besiktas. "To carry on doing that is a big ask. Maybe that is the reason he left knowing he would probably have to build for another campaign." Lee will take charge of the team for the first time against West Ham at Upton Park on Saturday when Bolton will aim to take another step forward to securing a UEFA Cup place. He admitted that part of his blueprint when he was approached by Allardyce to become his assistant was the chance to step up . Lee said: "I asked if I would be considered for the post if Sam left. That was agreed and now I've got it. "With two games left, the biggest thing is to keep the place steady and secure a spot in the UEFA Cup. "It is my job to assure the players that everything will run as smoothly as before as we try to get what we can from the next two games." Allardyce, meanwhile, has been linked to Manchester City. When asked if he would be surprised if the former Bolton boss turned up at Eastlands, Gartside said: "I would not be pleased. We would have to look at the circumstances. ***** " I think that by "better" he actually means "cheaper". Time will tell I guess, but I think their fans need to accept that they can forget Europe for a while after next season. I think Allardyce walked because he could see the writing on the wall - no transfer funds over the summer plus Anelka probably getting himself away (definitely if there isn't a marked improvement to the squad) would have left him with about £8m for teambuilding and his best striker down the road. To give Allardyce his due, he's proved that he's very good at running a club within those kind of constraints but I bet that every season, he's wished he didn't have to.
I can see them becoming another Charlton myself - the club has been driven forward by the sheer force of Allardyce's personality over the last few years, coupled with his talent for spotting assorted knackers and kackers that he can rejuvenate and squeeze a decent season out of. Take that away and they are a mid-table side with limited funds and apparently limited ambition.
Best of luck to Sammy, but I don't see it happening for him there somehow. "
what a great post, and completely cutting through the drivel above from PG. not hindsight. just good judgment. |
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Post by riochforthereebok on May 5, 2016 19:42:08 GMT
I think there's enough 'away' support to boost some of our home attendances with the likes of Sheff Utd, Barnsley, Bury Rochdale Oldham and of course, the possibilities like Accrington, Bradford Portsmouth and we are renewing our acquaintances with Swindon, so it should be a good old throwback to the dark days of lower league football.
I'll go for between 9500 and 12000
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Post by megsontilidie on May 7, 2016 20:56:54 GMT
found another good site for attendance stats. www.footballwebpages.co.uk/premierleague/attendancesi see we had a bigger attendance even this season than Bournemouth. 11,000 for them. although obviously they're limited by capacity. but if we had still been in the Prem, it would have been hard to keep on hanging in. from 2006/07 our max was around 23,500. that puts us 18th in this year attendance rankings. the likes of West ham will get much bigger next year. Liverpool are also extending. i believe Spurs and Chelsea are also moving to new grounds eventually, or upgrading their old, in Chelsea's case. i think i'm right in saying there are only 3 town clubs ( i.e not cities) currently in the PL... West Brom, Watford, and Bourne/mth,and all 3 are in the bottom 4 of the attendance tables. 2 of those only got promoted last season, and the other, up til recently was a classic yo-yo club. both the promoted clubs are town clubs..Boro, and Burnley. www.footballwebpages.co.uk/leaguetwo/attendancesPompey in Lge 2 are getting 16,000+. Accrington missed a chance of getting automatic promotion from that lge too. they are getting less than 2000. the only side getting less than them are also form the North west..Morecambe...getting 1582. www.footballwebpages.co.uk/leagueone/attendancesthe 3 sides with the worst figures in Lge 1 are also from the North west..Bury, Rochdale and Fleetwood. all getting between 3000 & 4000. with 19 PL clubs with higher gates than us, 17 in the Ch'ship, 2 in lge 1, and 1 in lge 2...we come in ranked at 40th in the 92 clubs. which is spookily close to our rankings in the league tables themselves.. of 44th ( 20 in PL + 24th ch'ship ) www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/bolw.htmlooking back historically we've rarely dropped below 50th. (27th last year) way back in the period 1890 to 1910 we had our best rankings...3rd . during our peaks year in the 50's this was still a very healthy 12th. our best recent ranking was in 2005/06 when we ranked 15th. |
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