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Post by OohMac on Feb 14, 2016 15:45:03 GMT
I'm convinced we will go down now and we won't come back up because the system does not work and if you give any team extra numbers, which we do. As I said our only wins come against bad teams on a bad day. And what's more teams around us seem to get what this league is about and know that you can go away to any team and have a fighting chance. We don't.
Liam Feeney should be looking for double digits he's missed sitter after sitter. God knows why he has to play every single minute of every game.
I would put Wheater on crutches ahead of Dervite.
I'm glad be match was enjoyable for those that went, not sure what's worse playing abysmally and being bottom or knowing that we have capable players...and being bottom.
Neil needs someone to say don't think your jobs safe, you have 3 games to turn this around or you're out and were not paying you a penny and you can have your day in court! Because by the time it gets to there we will be in new ownership or completely gone.
Should have got Warnock for 6 months. After that I'm not sure. I'm 100% any other manager wouldn't play Dervite and the bemoan individual errors every single bloody week.
Clueless Lennon.
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Post by joanna on Feb 14, 2016 16:26:14 GMT
Another reminder that the spirit, work-rate and willingness are still good. We more than matched a very good side, playing away and with players who largely continue to show that have ability, but are inconsistent and lacking in confidence Lack of pace has always been the issue along with sudden individual errors that no manager can cater for. Many fans on here clamour for a change of system but I'm not sure that would work any more successfully. I certainly would not want to return to DF's "I know best" defensive, dire tactics. He didn't. They failed.
Then there are some who call for Neil to be sacked. So, come on then.......who would you replace him with? And how could we afford this "magician" expected to triumph with the same set of players?
It's all very well saying that no other club would have tolerated these resulis, but no other club is £190 million in debt!!
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Post by davidm on Feb 14, 2016 17:18:46 GMT
Another reminder that the spirit, work-rate and willingness are still good. We more than matched a very good side, playing away and with players who largely continue to show that have ability, but are inconsistent and lacking in confidence Lack of pace has always been the issue along with sudden individual errors that no manager can cater for. Many fans on here clamour for a change of system but I'm not sure that would work any more successfully. I certainly would not want to return to DF's "I know best" defensive, dire tactics. He didn't. They failed. Then there are some who call for Neil to be sacked. So, come on then.......who would you replace him with? And how could we afford this "magician" expected to triumph with the same set of players? It's all very well saying that no other club would have tolerated these resulis, but no other club is £190 million in debt!! I cannot agree with you say, Joanna.
“We more than matched a very good side” but we lost. Yet again. We have reached a stage in the season whereby results count for all or else it's relegation for sure.
“Many fans on here clamour for a change of system but I'm not sure that would work any more successfully”. Well if we had more people in midfield instead of regularly being outnumbered, we may prevent the defence being caught out so often. I know you don’t agree but playing with a lone striker and 2 wingers, particularly away from home, is naïve in the extreme. Like Andy said yesterday, we are not playing in Scotland where you just walk over the opposition.
I accept your comments re DF's "I know best" defensive, dire tactics but 17 goals conceded in the last 6 away games says that something must change.
“Then there are some who call for Neil to be sacked. So, come on then.......who would you replace him with”. Well there have been calls on here for Neil Warnock – let’s see how he goes at Rotherham. I am not in that camp because I don’t necessarily want a change of manager but I do want a change of approach to games. I want us to go out with some hope (expectation??) of being able to win away from home. If not a win then a draw not failure in 11 out of 15 games.
“It's all very well saying that no other club would have tolerated these results, but no other club is £190 million in debt!!”. Well I point you towards one of my previous posts regarding clubs facing winding up orders. Northampton came within 24 hours of winding up earlier this season and where are they in the league? TOP. Where has this acceptance that because of the financial problems, then we must be relegated come from? Yes, it is hard and Mr Lennon cannot go out and buy/loan players but tactically he is woefully short and is taking us down.
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Post by andyl on Feb 14, 2016 17:24:00 GMT
All fair comment,Joanna. You once argued for more time for Jimmy Phillips?
But I think I agree. It's too late now for managerial change to have effect. A few weeks ago perhaps.
The answer to who could do better is surely a counter question 'who could do worse?'
4pts from as many away games as we have played is not good. That we have competed well in many of them is more galling. But yes there is no guarantee that defensive strategies will work. There is certainty that the 4-3-3 with non defending wingers has not?
Realistically relegation in our context and under this manager is as near to a certain prospect as can be. Under another probably also - now. It's a shame because we seem to have players comparably paid to our rivals and competing well.
We just keep being counter attacked and making mistakes. Is this Neil's fault?I don't know. Is he accountable?Yes
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Post by davidm on Feb 14, 2016 17:32:08 GMT
All fair comment,Joanna. You once argued for more time for Jimmy Phillips? But I think I agree. It's too late now for managerial change to have effect. A few weeks ago perhaps. The answer to who could do better is surely a counter question 'who could do worse?' 4pts from as many away games as we have played is not good. That we have competed well in many of them is more galling. But yes there is no guarantee that defensive strategies will work. There is certainty that the 4-3-3 with non defending wingers has not? Realistically relegation in our context and under this manager is as near to a certain prospect as can be. Under another probably also - now. It's a shame because we seem to have players comparably paid to our rivals and competing well. We just keep being counter attacked and making mistakes. Is this Neil's fault?I don't know. Is he accountable?Yes Quick question, Andy.
I know you think he is good ref but have you seen Mark Clattenburg's penalty against City.
Please explain it
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Post by OohMac on Feb 14, 2016 17:56:14 GMT
I can explain it. Mark Clattenberg is an egotist who wants to have as much Sky coverage as he can. I imagine he has the game on his Sky Plus and will watch this back tonight. Playing in slow mo his hand pointing for the spot Under Owen Coyle and Dougie freedman we seemed to give away a penalty a week. They've been few and far between this season is this a.) better referring b.) not tackling and letting opponents go through instead c.) no Alex baptiste?
If you'd have said to me Neil Warnock before I would have said its a backwards step, a short term fix to a long problem and not the way forward. But Neil has the experience of this league and more importantly he can get a side passing it about and he can give the players a kick up the arse or a pick me up. The amount of times I've heard Lennon say "the lads a bit short on confidence" no shit Sherlock. You exile them after a mistake but keep Dervite no matter what.
So now Neil Warnock is no longer on the table, and we won't pay compensation so if say Steve Clarke would be number one target. Nigel Pearson too but he'll be holding out for better.
Basically if you asked Neil Lennon at the interview stage what's your biggest achievement he could talk impressively about Nou Camp, San Siro and 60000 fans at Celtic but if you asked when have you been through difficult times and how did you fix it? Stumped. Because he hasn't the experience. I'd say he's learning on the Job but he clearly isn't. Also Paul Clement, throw him in there and see if Brendan Rogers fancies an almighty challenge. Truth is I'm not sure who is realistic but If we hired Gary Rowett or Lee Carsley there would have been a lot of moaning but both have done great jobs albeit in a short space of time. Carsleys Brentford were the best footballing side I've seen this season
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Post by realtrottersforever on Feb 14, 2016 18:30:49 GMT
I probably don't need to say too much. You have all seen this game regularly. It was a very good game for a neutral. There were lots of end to end movements. We were probably the better team for much of the game and we scored two very good goals But of course we cannot do other than lose games playing with two wingers and a slow midfield protecting Dervite. Nor can we not be relegated under this manager because he persists in a formation that is too vulnerable to counter attacks. It's as if he is trying to lose matches and to make sure of these defeats he refuses to make substitutes until much too late. Today he left Emile on for about 85 minutes. He will not be getting out of the bath anytime soon We began brightly and passed the ball around well. Holding is a class act in possession and today we saw several forays and deft touches in addition to some composed defensive work. I am going to credit Dervite with a goal line clearance in the second half but he was abominable again today The first goal was identical to the Eastleigh home goal and the Wolves away. One pass and Dervite was left floundering Our goal in contrast was excellent. Feeney did well to move infield, Mark Davies found Silva who crossed well for the ball to find Emile who crashed it in But then we were on the attack and a kick from defence after Derik was upfield stranded everyone. Spearing gave chase but was outpaced and didn't tackle when he could even if a yellow card might well have ensued. The man ran the length of the field tipped it inside and they scored easily. Derik I might say played pretty well until the end and is miles better than Dervite but was oddly asked to go to left back. Very strange. In the second half we pressed strongly and Spearing again hit a cracker of a left foot shot. And the came the game's decisive moment. Feeney broke away and shot feebly straight at the keeper when one on one. Then at the other end Amos whose distribution was much improved gave Vela an easy ball. He passed it infield to Davies who had plenty of time to move it on but got caught and suddenly it was 3-2. We persevered to the end and Woolery had a couple of good darts in the ten minutes he was given but we had given away too much Soft goals but a flawed team selection. Yet again home opposition were afforded the luxury of counter attacking us and yet again our wingers didn't really get in the game. Amos 8 Vela 5 Holding 7 Dervite 2 Derik 6 Davies 6 Pratley 7 Spearing 7 Feeney 4 Heskey 6 Silva 4 totally agree with yours and David M's points. subs are just baffling. not just too little too late...wrong diagnosis..wrong messages sent out to those playing badly and those showing more willing.... Mavies got 4 & "anonymous" per Iles's ratings in the BN..which I can well believe.,.but gets left on until 84 mins... Wellington who'd threatened and assisted our first goal ...his reward from NL= 1st guy off. Woolery a guy who was bursting with confidence after his goal last week gets brought on at 83/84 mins Messi would have a job on to keep digging us out with barely 10 mins to play. the whoscored.com stats show he got just 3 touches in that time..unsurprisingly. NL had done better recently with subs...Dobbie v Wolves scoring a vital goal to earn a point. the impact of Trotter and Woolery v Rotherham. but yesterday was a step backwards. I see Mavies made 0 successful tackles, and 0 interceptions. still not scored a goal for us either this season. that's the eternal problem with him..play him higher up..he rarely assists or scores..play him deeper and his defensive contribution is minimal..he retains the ball well normally , his error yesterday being an exception to the rule but a lot of his passing is back and sideways..he doesn't dictate games with his passing. Pratley may have offered little offensively as the BN ratings report suggests but even he can gain some credit for defensive contribution...5 interceptions and 3 successful tackles. overall , 4 away points from a possible 48 (16 away games) is dreadful. tactically it all felt a bit too similar to Coyles tactics...Celtic like attitude "lets just attack and let them worry about us"...but we're not playing against poor sides. with the first 2 goals...defence is all at sea..countered both times. NL goes on about lack of a striker, but when you've shipped 2+ in all your last 6 away games..you need to be organising your defence better..I'm no fan of DF but away from home doesn't matter as much if you dig in and bore them all to death...the home stuff is decent (20 points gained ) under NL. there's a reason why Pulis and Allardyce haven't ever been relegated..unfortunately it seems too late for NL to learn the lessons from this. agree with Andy's post re the lack of subbing off of Feeney..been annoying me for a while has that issue. I decided to investigate it. www.statbunker.com/competitions/SeasonAppearances?comp_id=524&club_id=29he's only been subbed off 3 times..I was amazed it was that many ! I even looked into when they were because I'm struggling to remember a recent one...1st was v Boro on the 15/8/15. 2nd one was MK Dons away 18/8/15...and 3rd was 5/12/15 v Cardiff in the 94th minute (!).... so he's not been meaningfully subbed off, before say the 70th or even 80th minute mark since August.
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Post by flimwellfan on Feb 14, 2016 18:31:05 GMT
Yes, relegation is almost certain, whatever our tactics. I believe that the years of Eddie and Phil in charge will come to be remembered with affection. When you have supported the lads since 1948 as I have done, you eventually realise that PROFESSIONAL football is not only a game but a business. Money is predominantly the major driving element.Bolton Wanderers, although a founder member of the Football Association, has sadly become a little fish in an ever-evolving big pond. We, as supporters, are declining in numbers. Look at our catchment area and be realistic. We have punched above our weight for many years. Now, we must come to accept that many Boltonians prefer cricket to football!
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Post by OohMac on Feb 14, 2016 18:41:47 GMT
Cannot agree at all.
When 12,000 turn up to watch cricket week in, week out then you may have a point. And then your reasoning for Eddie and Phil's reign makes no sense. Football as a business is exactly the reason why it won't be remembered with affection.
Big Sams reign yes, Eddie and Gartsides definitely not. We still have a pending court case and staff aren't sure to be paid on a monthly basis. They are £190M in debt. Sorry but your comments make absolutely no sense to me.
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Post by davidm on Feb 14, 2016 18:57:31 GMT
Yes, relegation is almost certain, whatever our tactics. I believe that the years of Eddie and Phil in charge will come to be remembered with affection. When you have supported the lads since 1948 as I have done, you eventually realise that PROFESSIONAL football is not only a game but a business. Money is predominantly the major driving element.Bolton Wanderers, although a founder member of the Football Association, has sadly become a little fish in an ever-evolving big pond. We, as supporters, are declining in numbers. Look at our catchment area and be realistic. We have punched above our weight for many years. Now, we must come to accept that many Boltonians prefer cricket to football! I'm another who can't agree.
We may be a little fish in the Premiership pond but definitely not in the Championship.
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Post by joanna on Feb 14, 2016 19:38:20 GMT
I agree with you about Clattenburg, David, but you've misconstrued what I wrote about NL on almost every point.....whereas Andy hasn't.
And, yes, Andy, the only guy we have been able to afford all season is Jimmy P, who seemed to me to be doing a good job and could simply be promoted internally if the powers that be decide that Neil's set-up is simply wrong and costing us points.But can we even afford to lay NL off?
I think we used to agree that our performances under DF were largely dire, and what points we got were often by luck, whereas NL and the team seem to be remarkably UNlucky much of the time when they play well. For example, we played well and deserved something on Saturday.
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Post by OohMac on Feb 14, 2016 20:23:26 GMT
I keep making the point and i'm not sure if anyone has really given an answer but surely any severance pay offs will come after tax, loan and other repayments. By the time they take us to court and win then the company as it is will be gone and the new owners won't be liable for any of that.
That being said Trevor Birch could do us a favour by getting rid of anyone over £10K i'm thinking Wheater and Davies. Wheater is out of contract and won't play for us again and Mark Davies plays like he's already left. We could get rid of Lennon, Parker, Walford too.
Could be completely wrong on this and of course its not a very good way to run a business but if it means starting afresh with no huge wages and a decent manager then needs must.
Neil Lennon does not have a clue about Championship football. No away wins. Says it all. Are we really that bad? The fact that we're so "unlucky" in most games means surely not. Our big problem comes from lack of tactics, lack of confidence and not learning from past mistakes. I level all of this at Neil Lennon and his backroom team. I would be interested to see what Mjallby has to say on the matter.
Joanna, you seem so sure that we can't get a better manager. You might be right. I still like to think of us as a big championship side. Next season we will be a huge League One side. The next Eddie Howe or Sean Dyche is out there, we just need to find them and give them a chance. If you want specific names I can't give you any but I would like to think there are people out there who's job it is to keep an eye out for these people.
Can you really argue against Steve Clarke though?
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Post by flimwellfan on Feb 14, 2016 20:59:34 GMT
Let's get down to the basic facts. Who gave us our state-of-the-art ground? Who paid for the hotel and the training ground? Does anybody remember Burnden Park and walking down Manchester Road to stand on the terrace at the railway line end in the pouring rain watching football played on a mud heap? You cannot compare what we've got now to what we had to put with then. Now we have Premiership facilities but sadly only below average Championship support. The survival of Bolton Wanderers will depend upon living within our means and hoping that Neil Lennon or his successor can create a successful team from virtually nothing unless someone like Eddie comes along to take another gamble. I still say we will come to look back upon the last decade with affection. OK the administration made mistakes during that time.Some gambles didn't pay off and we were unlucky too, but we have seen great international names playing for us and witnessed some superb performances the like of which I do not expect to see again in my lifetime. Is Bolton still a footballing town? That is the big question. If not, will the Macron become a White's elephant? If it does it will be a sad end to a great dream largely created by Eddie and Phil.
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Post by andyl on Feb 15, 2016 9:20:39 GMT
Three points above I'd like to comment on;not all concern the Brighton game but they arise above so here goes
1.I agree with rtf above. After the game Neil is baffled at individual mistakes and cites Mark Davies for the third goal. He is baffled that we are counter attacked down the middle. 'We have a way of playing' he says' He does not criticise Feeney for his appalling,incompetent one on one miss at 2-3. We have 4pts from 48 away.
I'm not too fussed about goal three. These last three games Amos has consciously rolled or side footed the ball out and as a result we have played really well from the back. There is always a risk in this Brendan Rogers always argued for taking it. So do I. We played well through the team on Saturday and resisted punting the ball excessively to Heskey. Amos looked happier,was more involved and looked more confident.It's all connected. As for goal one there was an unreported repeat ten minutes later which Amos saved well. That should be the focus. Dervite is a major problem as is over commitment and the slow midfield. Davies who gets a bad press above and in the BN distributed the ball well from such positions on lots of occasions.He was integral to our passing fluency. Again if he is not going to be a tackler, assisted of goals and scorer at least playing deeper he makes us tick over. Not for me his worst game. Feeney however was wretched but for one move and Silva not much better
2. The Clattenburg penalty. The laws of the game are flawed. For simplicity's sake over time intentional has been replaced by deliberate in the wording. And this won't do. So FIFA issue guidance and referees' meetings and training tries to moderate the consistency of decisions but in the end as it has to the determining factor is the referee's opinion!
Refs are asked a) to avoid penalising for free kicks when proximity argues against deliberate movement. In such circumstance reflex movement is ignored- Sterling is not covered by proximity;and b) to take a view re natural and unnatural arm positions and this can include outstretched arms- here Stirling jumps like a forward and turns his back. Defensive reflex is not a consideration. One arm is outstretched. If the ball hits that arm it looks deliberate. But it hits the other which is not moving and can be argued natural or unnatural because the natural aspect of one is the result of the unnatural aspect of the other!
Decisions are sometimes influenced by location even though nothing in the laws says so. If Sterling does the same say on a near post and his hand stops a goal being scored what then. Should be determined by the same criteria as where it did occur.
Graham Poll says that Clattenburg may have guessed. Camera angles show tricky line of sight. I would give Clattenburg benefit of doubt on that one. He is the fittest and quickest of referees,had a better view than any of us and has an excellent track record. He spots too much.even SKD's marginal push v Fulham
Sterling for me takes a big risk. Of course he does not deliberately handle the ball. In penalty areas defenders seldom do. But re the two tie break interpretations of proximity and arm position( think here of the other arm,how he has turned away) he is certainly not in the clear. The ball is handled and Sterling has cut out a dangerous cross. He is in the penalty area and it doesn't matter where
OK that's the explanation, David. Re the decision itself it is correct by the laws and correct by their interpretation and correct in the referee's opinion. Three green lights or 2.5 if allowing debate about the non leading and struck arm.
There is I think an additional law which most fans and pundits go on and referees are well advised to pay heed to:the law of common sense. I would imagine that in this incident most of us, me included would not have felt the incident merited a penalty. It was marginal to the penalty area and a brash forward just tried to block a cross. I think 60-70% of the time that would not be given. In most cases the referees would not be near enough to see it. Here Clattenburg is prey to his own skills. He actually sees a marginal decision,applies the laws and FIFA's interpretations , technically on these grounds gets it right but falls foul of a flawed law and the law of common sense and in my opinion which is worth nothing compared to his gets a big decision in a big match wrong.. But we need to have in mind that Sterling jumped turned his back and handled the ball and not Clattenburg. And I have explained it as best I can and as asked but have not tried to justify it!!!
3. Re fimwelfan's two posts: I agree with these and respect the 1948 perspective. It is very welcome. And it is all about money. And we are a little fish and one contemplating administration and Supporters'Trust intervention. In any business there is a distinction between capital assets held and cash flow! Our players may be valed or to be precise historically valued higher than some others and I do believe that poor tactics have depressed our position in the league. But as Joanna says there is lots of spirit in our play and some of that is back to the wall bravura. But in cash terms as of today we are skint a sardine amongst predators even in the championship.
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Post by joanna on Feb 15, 2016 10:45:00 GMT
1. It hits Sterling on the back. End of story! 2. It's outside the box, another end of story! A preposterous decision to add to his notorious collection.
I do not like Man City, dislike Spurs even more but, more than anything, hate injustice caused by officials' appalling decisions on the most important judgements which ruin the game and, potentially, a whole season's work.
BW have been on the wrong end of many a Clotandberk decision. Time for more tv replays and technology to avoid such errors. They work successfully in other sports and add to rather than detract from the drama.
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