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Post by whitesince63 on Jan 7, 2016 19:32:42 GMT
I'll win that tonight Whites but there's no way I'm donating owt till the fat controller has completely severed ties with the Wanderers... On principal Turquoise top RTF??? Is that the uniform of a children's play group or the BathStore A children's playgroup Sadly rtf I didn't win so it will have to be Saturday instead. I'm a cert because my chances are reputedly down from 45 million to one to only 7 million to one. No brainer ;-))
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 20:42:03 GMT
Sadly rtf I didn't win so it will have to be Saturday instead. I'm a cert because my chances are reputedly down from 45 million to one to only 7 million to one. No brainer ;-)) sorry guys tomoz I win the euro then sat our lotto , first thing Monday in TB office sign contract on wed sack the lot on thurs , Fri make Andy coach with david m as assistant , rtf as player welfare manager (well she's used to dealing with kids ), find you a job if you like 63, wont pay much only £5k per week ,let me know how you feel by Monday 10-00am .
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Post by riochforthereebok on Jan 7, 2016 21:40:48 GMT
Sadly rtf I didn't win so it will have to be Saturday instead. I'm a cert because my chances are reputedly down from 45 million to one to only 7 million to one. No brainer ;-)) sorry guys tomoz I win the euro then sat our lotto , first thing Monday in TB office sign contract on wed sack the lot on thurs , Fri make Andy coach with david m as assistant , rtf as player welfare manager (well she's used to dealing with kids ), find you a job if you like 63, wont pay much only £5k per week ,let me know how you feel by Monday 10-00am . Can I sell programmes Owd?? I'll do it for free if it keeps my club afloat
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Post by davidm on Jan 7, 2016 21:44:29 GMT
Sadly rtf I didn't win so it will have to be Saturday instead. I'm a cert because my chances are reputedly down from 45 million to one to only 7 million to one. No brainer ;-)) sorry guys tomoz I win the euro then sat our lotto , first thing Monday in TB office sign contract on wed sack the lot on thurs , Fri make Andy coach with david m as assistant , rtf as player welfare manager (well she's used to dealing with kids ), find you a job if you like 63, wont pay much only £5k per week ,let me know how you feel by Monday 10-00am . I wish!!
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Post by realtrottersforever on Jan 8, 2016 0:50:31 GMT
Sadly rtf I didn't win so it will have to be Saturday instead. I'm a cert because my chances are reputedly down from 45 million to one to only 7 million to one. No brainer ;-)) sorry guys tomoz I win the euro then sat our lotto , first thing Monday in TB office sign contract on wed sack the lot on thurs , Fri make Andy coach with david m as assistant , rtf as player welfare manager (well she's used to dealing with kids ), find you a job if you like 63, wont pay much only £5k per week ,let me know how you feel by Monday 10-00am . How did you know our staff are like big kids? Joking obviously ?. I don't actually work with the children but I do look after the finances so maybe I could be the book keeper and I can guarantee I'd do a better job of keeping a tight rein on the expenses than has been done of late at the Macron.
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Post by riochforthereebok on Jan 8, 2016 9:04:55 GMT
sorry guys tomoz I win the euro then sat our lotto , first thing Monday in TB office sign contract on wed sack the lot on thurs , Fri make Andy coach with david m as assistant , rtf as player welfare manager (well she's used to dealing with kids ), find you a job if you like 63, wont pay much only £5k per week ,let me know how you feel by Monday 10-00am . How did you know our staff are like big kids? Joking obviously ?. I don't actually work with the children but I do look after the finances so maybe I could be the book keeper and I can guarantee I'd do a better job of keeping a tight rein on the expenses than has been done of late at the Macron. You'll never do a better job than Gartside RTF... Ahem!! Can't see you ending up with £750k per year and a magnificent barn conversion in Knutsford if we entrusted you with the books, you'd be too honest I'm sure
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Post by OohMac on Jan 8, 2016 19:03:25 GMT
Maybe its the wrong attitude to take when we're so desperate but I won't part with a penny until I see some of the fat cat board members step up first.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 19:51:24 GMT
Maybe its the wrong attitude to take when we're so desperate but I won't part with a penny until I see some of the fat cat board members step up first. sorry but I think your getting the wrong end of the stick , this is not about now its about the next decades, the trust will not take effect until next year at the soonest ,and so far no one has mentioned money no doubt there will be some form of membership fee but that will be set by the members ,as for the fat cats ,cant see them joining in fact I think they will be very much against it if there still in office at the end ,who knows only time will tell .
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Post by whitesince63 on Jan 8, 2016 21:02:04 GMT
sorry guys tomoz I win the euro then sat our lotto , first thing Monday in TB office sign contract on wed sack the lot on thurs , Fri make Andy coach with david m as assistant , rtf as player welfare manager (well she's used to dealing with kids ), find you a job if you like 63, wont pay much only £5k per week ,let me know how you feel by Monday 10-00am . Can I sell programmes Owd?? I'll do it for free if it keeps my club afloat See you Monday at ten then owdonlad. You can make me what you like for 5k a week. Good luck ;-))
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Post by andyl on Jan 9, 2016 10:24:22 GMT
'Give them bread and circuses ' wrote the Roman satirist Juvenal in about 100AD- this in a culture where aspirant politicians, and for over a hundred years Emperors, had taken it upon themselves to pay for sporting entertainments in return for popularity or self interest, for example chariot racing watched by 80000 fans from time to time at state festivals with up to eight state sponsored teams. The implication of the satire is that the vast majority of the people would themselves have no interest in the organisation or funding of public games and even less in politics and civic responsibility but their appetite for games, fanatical support of this or that faction ( blue team , gren team etc) was boundless.
And in this satire remains a question central to the argument. ' To what extent should/will supporters have an interest in organising their own entertainments? ' Juvenal if alive today would be very cynical about the prospects or indeed motives behind this initiative.
So we can look around to see how UK clubs are financed. Straightaway we can from the Forbes rich list see that billionaires control or have interests in the major EPL clubs. Arsenal have three billionaires and Stan Kroenke with 64% shareholding, Spurs have Joe Lewis, Chelsea Abramovich and several others less well known. In the championship it's similar but millionaires are more common. For example Steve Lansdown at Bristol City who can now allegedly offer £3m for Zac Clough despite being only a handful of points above us.
The clubs with Supporters Trusts are commonly in the lower reaches of the league or in the pyramids outside it. Some are Phoenix projects-rising from the Ashes of chaos- From what I can gather from transcripts of the debate and feedback from it, in so far as Trusts can raise money from local business or from members the more successful ones can buy shares or a stake or a voice in thier clubs and perhaps stabilise them to the extent that their finances can be managed within the gate money and the modest sums allowed by the Trust. So I suppose the first question here is whether BWFC should merely be planning for a future in Div 1 or Div2 or below. If yes then a Supporters Trust looks quite attractive. Most here will presumably cry ' No-disaster' as we ambitiously yearn for Djorkaeff, Okocha, Munich. But then it could be argued thatb such naiveete at Board level has reduced us to where we are now.
It is argued more generally that fans have become disenfranchised from their clubs, have no voice other than at the ticket office and even then the sums concerned are insignificant compared to salaries and agents' fees and overheads in the Championship as well as the Premier League. And League One? So an organised Supporters Trust could have a voice? This too begs questions, two groups of which are critical -' Could a Supporters Trust of even 1000 members properly speak for all the fans?' and ' 'Why should/would a new owner if found welcome their input and on what topics and how? The former can perhaps be answered by the use of social networks, wide accessibility and so on. The latter by the gift of board membership? But is it a s simple as this?
Of necessity the agenda for a Supporters' trust is open ended. So again we have to ask ' Is it a good thing in itself?' We can variously construct agendas for the short term and maybe even the long term but all the variables above leave them vague.
Of course the Supporters Trust will not consist of recipients of Bread and Circuses. Like any such organisation it will probably be driven by activists, perhaps ex or current politicians, some wealthy fans with time on their hands indeed people who in another life might be the billionaire owners or board members if they just had enough money.Over time, maybe 20 or thirty years or more what might it look like when current activists are recalled only by their ashes scattered at the ground?
Meanwhile we can look around at Germany,Spain, Italy or even more widely to identify the best models of community or fan engagement in their clubs. Barca has its socios ( members) penyes ( getting on for 200000 world wide annual investors). Germany is more community based. But then we need to ask if what works in Catalunya or the Lander of Germany could be transported to Bolton. And of course these contexts have different histories affecting them be it the Spanish Civil War or a national drive which distributes the money taken in nationally to clubs according to gradings of their academy. In cricket here we have central contracts and ECB money keeping many counties able to support 4 Day cricket watched by 1000 people per day. Nothing like that for greedy football. The FA does lots for grassroots football but the EPL clubs hoard and spend the riches of TV money and the system is governed entirely by its self interest. In essence the Premier League has destroyed the infrastructure of community football and equal competition.. And Financial Fairplay Rules have just exaggerated this divide between rich and poor.
When I first began watching the Wanderers in 1958 as a 6 year old it was very much the era of bread and circuses. There was relatively little affluence on view but crowds were vast. I remember mass crowds streaming down Manchester Rd on evening to see the 1961 Spurs game. They were in all gold and shiny gold at that and I can still visualise a Les Allen goal consequent to an inventive chip over our defensive wall..and if a shot beat Eddie Hopkinson it had to be a good one. So who provided all this entertainment? I remember asking my father who these board members were listed in the programme.. There seemed ever to be Warburtons and some others. Of course he didn't know. But the board weren't the individual benefactors were they? Did they own the club? Who did? I'm not sure it ever arose as a question. Ok Post Taylor and EPL it's an all seater environmment populated by more affluent fans and c lubs have owners if they want to be competitive at the highest level.
This begs the question as to whether today's and tomorrow's fans are at all a bread and circus crew or something entirely different- and is a Supporters' trust perhaps an extension of the old Board model with a larger core croup of affluent enough stakeholders rather than a genuine grassroots movement?
The club has to a degree tried this in the past with the Gold, Silver and Red lifetime commitments of I think the 90s and the flotation of shares somewhat later where fans lost their money in moments. Just maybe a Supporters' trust can do better than this raising money. It did cross my mind to wonder what would happen if Eddie Davies seeking to sever ties and facing more biils whichever way he turns, might not do better to lob £5m at a Supporters Trust and say here buy the club for a £1 if you want to? It woud be a terrifying prospect? Who would arise to run the clubs finances? Could such a group ever boast the long term expertise? And even if it did how could it compete with the billionaires and millionaires unless setting out the club's stall for a long period in lower league football.
Gathering these thoughts I keep coming back to uncertainties and scepticism. I'm not sure the Bread and Circus satire especially in the televison and internet age applies. And yet the notion of supporters trust seems to appeal to assumed masses of potential football fans. Lots of open questions really and all beg clarity of purpose for such an organisation - the very clarity that by definition cannot be achieved now and maybe ever. Will it get off the ground? Will enough fans stump up £100 or more. I guess it will depend on the passions and rhetoric of the activists and the extent of the deepening crisis i.e what depths we reach. I wish it luck. I hope it succeeds. But I haven't a clue what at!
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Post by OohMac on Jan 9, 2016 18:27:41 GMT
I'll admit I don't know much about finances, but I'll give the money into a trust when they do a full investigation into where that money has gone and why we owe £190m for a £30m loan?
No more undisclosed crap. Honest truth
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Post by realtrottersforever on Jan 13, 2016 0:18:22 GMT
Have you all signed up and pledged your £10 to the supporters trust. No money changing hands yet. I'm in, are you???
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Post by riochforthereebok on Jan 13, 2016 11:12:23 GMT
Have you all signed up and pledged your £10 to the supporters trust. No money changing hands yet. I'm in, are you??? Nope, not yet RTF, but I'm hoping that once you claim that lottery win you'll buy the Wanderers That weren't you comin out of Morrisons in Bolton with the winning ticket was it !!!
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Post by realtrottersforever on Jan 13, 2016 12:01:51 GMT
Sorry RTFR but it wasn't me, it might have been me coming out of Morrisons, but not with a Lottery ticket, I don't do it any more and haven't for about 5yrs.
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Post by andyl on Jan 13, 2016 14:13:58 GMT
Have you all signed up and pledged your £10 to the supporters trust. No money changing hands yet. I'm in, are you??? Yes.
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