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Post by riochforthereebok on Mar 17, 2015 21:51:51 GMT
How did Lennon 'ring' the changes??? We haven't got anyone that can improve on tonight for the Wigan game. We couldn't buy a goal in this game but our very own Beckford is knocking em in AND Chris Eagles even scored... WOW A defeat is a defeat regardless of how we played tonight and Lennon has some big changes and big decisions to make in a few weeks. Had to laugh hearing a quote today in reference to Readngs win last night over Bradford, one of the pundits said, I'm sure Reading will do a better job this time than they did over Bolton all them years ago!!!! Against Arsenal??? Yeah right!!
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Post by megsontilidie on Mar 17, 2015 22:04:17 GMT
never nice to lose but some positives to take.. Wigan losing..., Rochina very lively in first half then faded. could be good impact player for sat'day. we've lost 6 away games on the spin...sounds horrendous until you spot 5 of those 6 are against top half sides...blburn, ipswich, derby, forest, boro..and the 6th was Roth'ham..a winnable game if the timing wasn't so bad after the energy sapping 0-0 at Anfield.
we were at least competitive tonight especially taking into account that we were holding back a few for the more important/more winnable Wigan game. lets hope ALF was precautionary..Mccarthy and Bannan the other main ones spared (or minutes minimised in the case of BazzaB. )
but we've still got the ongoing issue against top half sides . for that reason, i don't think we'll go up next season. too much to turn round. i repeat the Mick mccarthy 3 stage plan...stay up 1st season, top half 2nd season.... top 6 3rd season. and that's doing it with zero cash buys.
our silly run of shipping loads has been ended. that's now 6 games where we conceded just 1 or less...with clean sheets in the last 2 home games and ever so close to an away clean sheet at bl'burn. of course, this better defensive form has come at the expense of our habit of scoring in 95% of games..the last 3 away games we have failed to score in...ipswich, bl'burn, boro - but those are all top half sides. & still we haven't had a striker score an open play goal away from home. but looking ahead... Wigan have shocking home form..so if ALF is fit for Wigan, there's a good chance he can break that stat.
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Post by andyl on Mar 17, 2015 22:38:46 GMT
What to say? On the face of it yet another inexplicable team selection . This was always going to be every bit as winnable as the forthcoming Wigan game but NL risked everything leaving out some of the better players from Saturday's victory . I expected a routine defeat.
And yet somehow the first half was as good as any I've seen away from home. We played three at the back with Vela pushed on to guard against Mings and he barely got a kick throughout. Dervite, Mills and Ream always looked shaky and yet again we relied on the excellent Amos who thwarted yet another one on one coming out and standing wide and tall. Dervite looked slow and a bit casual. Mills had a better game but still missed his first header. But to talk about that misses how well we played . With five strung across midfield we outnumbered them continually. And the passing was excellent. Rochina was at times brilliant, good in the air and clever on the ground. Able to pick passes he linked with Eidur, Trotter and especially Walker and we drove them back with wave upon wave of attacks. Craig Davies was not up to the task competing erratically, fouling frequently, getting offside and getting knocked over. He also made the wrong runs at times. Yet Rochina and Walker stormed forward. Ream missed an Easy left foot tap in from close range. Rochina, Craig D and Vela all spurned good shooting opportunities ( we were dreadfully shot shy) and from the best chance after some superb inter passing Rochina slotted one just wide much as Clayton critically had done at Norwich.
we could have been three up. Not sure why Le Fondre wasn't selected and in the end dropped out of bench duty. We sorely needed him. O for a striker! We were so much the better side in that first half
In the second half we began well but fizzled out. Eidur who had run everywhere albeit slowly had been excellent in the link up play but he reasonably was hooked for Bannan. Rochina also tired moved forward- a mistake this! If he was ok to continue he had to stay in midfield, if not to be subbed. In the end cramp defeated him. We had a narrow escape after Trotter was beaten to a ball and a sot re ounces off the post and was cracked back in only for Amos to get up and pull off a stupendous low save. Surely this was a sign that we could for once endure.
but no Hall came on for Rochina and made a mess of his first touch losing the ball in midfield . They broke through and when a ball broke to inside left the player miskicked completely but the ball slammed into the ground and looped into the goal. A total fluke. Yet again and one where we lost the ball
what else? Trotter surely frustrated everyone with his occasional errant passes but he also made a lot of good incisive ones. Coke was anonymous but held a position well and got involved in some good phases of keep ball
in desperation Mills went forward. We got our chance to equalise but Ream over hit the cross and Dervite I think got under it
There was much to admire in this game Rochina is another Clough surging through midfield and Walker compared with the absent Feeney is chalk to cheese. So we didn't miss him! Nor did we miss Danns We now face a tougher task v Wigan and NL has some difficult selection choices. He almost got this one right but in the end must be judged to have tinkered too much and sacrificed the wrong game. But in saying that if our defenders were just a touch more secure and we had taken on some shots especially Rochina we would have run out easy victors in this very winnable game- their reserve keeper looked really dodgy!
Amos 9 Vela 8 Mills 7 Dervite 5 Ream 6 Trotter 6 Coke 5 Rochina 8 Eidur 7 Craig D 3 Walker 8 Bannan 4 Hall -1 ( No touches of note save the goal conceding one)
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Post by andyl on Mar 18, 2015 7:05:49 GMT
Strange match ratings from Marc Iles. Davies and Dervite were really weak, Amos, Rochina and Walker stunningly good.
Yes mtid we have staunched the flow of goals being leaked but the main reason is the form of Amos. He's saved a series of one on one chances gifted by our defence. Against Lonergan often with harder chances oppositions scored the lot whether at near post or down the middle. But from what I saw last night there has been little or no defensive improvement in Ream, Dervite and Mills. They all struggle aerially, Dervite and Mills are really slow. Ream makes the most interceptions and is the best of the three and he is very good going forward, our only defender who can pass accurately. Yet he made a dreadful error last night and was saved from ignominy only by Amos
Why will we not shoot ? Has anyone scored a 25 harder since The New Year? Perhaps but I'm struggling to remember one other than Le Fondre's open glory goal
Without all the other debacles last night would have been uplifting yet unlucky. It was of course another experimental team formation 3-5-1-1. The players that we have are in need of more continuity. Rochina should start at Wigan . Eidur will probably not be able to move for a week so Heskey and Le Fondre will replace him and the awful Davies. McCarthy must take over from Dervite. And Vela will play deeper. With a bit of luck that will be it. I certainly wouldn't drop Walker or reintroduce Feeney or Janko at the expense of midfield numbers. I think NL almost by chance has struck upon a much better and tighter playing model with four plus Vela pressing in midfield. I fear he will rotate Feeney back. We cannot attack Wigan and turn it into an away game for them. We must hit them on the counter. They have had no answer to that this year. But now for the Wigan thread. Well done Watford. You may have just saved us!
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Post by riochforthereebok on Mar 18, 2015 8:24:04 GMT
Should Fulham and Rotgerham win tonight, we will be ONE point above a relegation place. How on earth has this been allowed to happen? Darkslime held on to Freedman for far too long and for that, he should go at the end of the season. If we didn't have Lennon, we would be in even more trouble, but that said and I'm not being unfair here, NL has had enough to drag us away from the position we are in, so he has to take some of the blame. One could argue of his lack of Championship experience, but when you can get an average team like Celtic beating Barca, he can't be all that bad!!! This game V Wigan is turning out to be a massive cup final for both teams, we MUST win. Looking at Wigan, that FA Cup win is turning out to be a poisoned chalice. Think Portsmouth!!
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Post by davidm on Mar 18, 2015 8:56:53 GMT
Should Fulham and Rotgerham win tonight, we will be ONE point above a relegation place. How on earth has this been allowed to happen? Darkslime held on to Freedman for far too long and for that, he should go at the end of the season. If we didn't have Lennon, we would be in even more trouble, but that said and I'm not being unfair here, NL has had enough to drag us away from the position we are in, so he has to take some of the blame. One could argue of his lack of Championship experience, but when you can get an average team like Celtic beating Barca, he can't be all that bad!!! This game V Wigan is turning out to be a massive cup final for both teams, we MUST win. Looking at Wigan, that FA Cup win is turning out to be a poisoned chalice. Think Portsmouth!! You're a tiny bit wrong here. If Fulham and Rotherham win we will still be 10 points clear of a relegation spot:- 16 Bolton 38 44 17 Huddersfield 38 44 18 Reading 37 44 19 Brighton 38 42 20 Fulham 37 40 21 Rotherham 37 40 22 Wigan 38 34 23 Millwall 38 32 24 Blackpool 38 22 but I do take your point. It is shameful that we are struggling along so low in the table. We are an easy touch for half the teams in this league. If you look at our results against teams in the top half of the league, we have won just 2 games and lost most of the others. It is no good saying we have played well but lost. It is time to win some.
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Post by andyl on Mar 18, 2015 10:14:43 GMT
True ,David, but at least we looked like we could and would last night. Had you travelled I think you might have enjoyed the game last night. I did. If only we'd had Le Fondre or Clough. It could have been 0-4 ; we were that dominant for 60 mins! Not the case for my various other travels this year.
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Post by megsontilidie on Mar 18, 2015 11:51:55 GMT
Should Fulham and Rotgerham win tonight, we will be ONE point above a relegation place. How on earth has this been allowed to happen? Darkslime held on to Freedman for far too long and for that, he should go at the end of the season. If we didn't have Lennon, we would be in even more trouble, but that said and I'm not being unfair here, NL has had enough to drag us away from the position we are in, so he has to take some of the blame. One could argue of his lack of Championship experience, but when you can get an average team like Celtic beating Barca, he can't be all that bad!!! This game V Wigan is turning out to be a massive cup final for both teams, we MUST win. Looking at Wigan, that FA Cup win is turning out to be a poisoned chalice. Think Portsmouth!! You're a tiny bit wrong here. If Fulham and Rotherham win we will still be 10 points clear of a relegation spot:- 16 Bolton 38 44 17 Huddersfield 38 44 18 Reading 37 44 19 Brighton 38 42 20 Fulham 37 40 21 Rotherham 37 40 22 Wigan 38 34 23 Millwall 38 32 24 Blackpool 38 22 but I do take your point. It is shameful that we are struggling along so low in the table. We are an easy touch for half the teams in this league. I f you look at our results against teams in the top half of the league, we have won just 2 games and lost most of the others. It is no good saying we have played well but lost. It is time to win some. exactly... slight correction..3 wins v current top half...sheff wed, brentford and blackburn www.statto.com/football/teams/bolton-wanderers <(see table on top left..red for loss..dark green for win...yellowy light green for draw ) away from home vs top 11 sides..ALL LOST !!. not even a draw, nor an undeserved win. against the bottom 13 away from home... 3 wins...( brum, millwall, and sheff wed ) and 2 draws..reading and blackpool. at home, we're much better, the margins change slightly...generally lose to top third... middle third wins & draws....lower third..generally we beat. no-one outside of the top 5 have beat us at home. but stat aversions like Andy L's just lead him into ignorance..saying the team selection was inexplicable !?! and that Ipswich is just as winnable as wigan ?!?!?! for the record : www.statto.com/football/teams/wigan-athleticWIGAN HAVE WON 2 HOME GAMES ALL SEASON.... ( 1 v blackpool 1-0.... and beating Brum 4-0 in Aug..presumably that was when Brum were hopeless.) changing subject : www1.skysports.com/football/news/11688/9764490/neil-lennon-blasts-weak-mentality-of-bolton-after-ipswich-defeatnot keen on NL coming out with this...shades of DF. it may be true, but does he need to say it.. can't he phrase it more positive like...players need to be putting it all in to impress me and earn contracts and starting positions in next years team. DF nurtured a losing culture where excuses were laid out pre-match in BN articles about lack of finances ( hows that helping you Fulham spending 10 mill on ROSS MCcormack !? ) and its that, as much as poor players ( don't get me wrong there are some..mainly DF duds) that's hampering us..hence the good home form but not transferable away.... NL should be trying to solve that rather than slate his players. he can slate them to his hearts content, once we're mathematically safe..although even then it's not wise...it doesn't help you sell or shift them on does it as dopey Dougie learned . & onto Andy's point re Amos... yes i'd agree with most of that. like AndyL i don't particularly rate Lonergan..he had his good spell of "form" but then that flittered away as quick as it had come. Amos has made some very good saves but you have to acknowledge he is getting protected better than during that tail end of Lonergans time ..vs watford Lonners made 8 saves incl some good ones but still let 4 in. in the ipswich home game, he made 7 saves. so far Amos has not made more than 4 saves in any one game. we are playing a bit more in the Dougie- style ( that's dougie not doggie ) ..sitting deeper., restricting shots on target ( in general..still the odd lapse ) ..less possession, possibly pressing less... etc Forest v Rotherham tonight...a rare time you'll hear me say..."c'mon Dougie " !!!! www.statto.com/football/teams/rotherham-unitedroth'ham haven't beat a side in the top 16 away from home..so lets hope it stays that way .
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Post by andyl on Mar 18, 2015 13:45:02 GMT
Yes, all fair mtid re Amos but you need to factor in the effect he has on his defenders and midfielders too. He actually speaks to them,calls for the ball and advises them when dreaming - as best he can. I thought these arts had been lost - neither Lonergan nor Bogdan has appeared to see that they have a leadership function. Young though he is he does!
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Post by realtrottersforever on Mar 18, 2015 15:31:08 GMT
I have to take issue with some of what you say AndyL, (although you were there and I just listened on the radio) particularly
re: Trotter....you say.... Trotter surely frustrated everyone with his occasional errant passes but he also made a lot of good incisive ones. Trotter made 45 passes with a success rate of 75.6% and he didn't make any key passes. He had one shot off target was dispossessed 3 times one of which almost led to a goal.
re: Coke.....Coke was anonymous but held a position well and got involved in some good phases of keep ball.....Coke actually made virtually the same number of passes, 44, with a success rate of 79.6% our most successful passer of the ball....he had 1 shot on target and was dispossessed just the once.
I think you must wear rose tinted specs when watching Trotter.
Why will we not shoot ? Did you watch the shooting practice before Saturday's game? It was woeful.
re: Amos/Bogdan.....re Amos you need to factor in the effect he has on his defenders and midfielders too. He actually speaks to them,calls for the ball and advises them when dreaming - as best he can. I thought these arts had been lost - neither Lonergan nor Bogdan has appeared to see that they have a leadership function. Young though he is he does!..........When I went to the F A Cup match against Wigan....Bogdan was in goal and was shouting constantly even when we were attacking and I commented on this in the match thread. I only know this because I was sat in the West stand lower as opposed to the North Upper.
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Post by andyl on Mar 18, 2015 16:24:30 GMT
Statistics don't give a full picture, rtf. Coke for the most part played wide left and was out of the engine room. He had more time for passes and I would imagine lots went to Walker and Ream. He is a less visible player. I don't think there's much in the statistics you quote and you could equally argue that if Coke was good then so was Trotter.Yet Trotter was in the thick of the action in central defensive midfield and often under pressure when passing. In general he screened the back four well and used his size to good effect. He was an important part of the screen to which mtid refers above. He broke through once and should have done better with a shooting chance. He certainly opened up with two lazy wild passes but for the most part he did find players especially Rochina, Vela and Coke. Because his passes are quite firm and clean they get to their intended targets quickly. He was an important part of the fluency that commentators will have described in the first half.
But he's a dopey ha'porth and his errors are magnified by that.And certainly there were elements of the crowd last night with no time for him whatsoever- just as was the case at Millwall, I understand. I appreciate that for you and plenty of other people he is beyond the pale. And he is so lethargic at times that I get this completely. But yesterday he competed quite well, won some headers and Ipswich actually barely threatened us from open play and some of that was down to him. What I like when Trotter plays is that as a whole we interpass much better and over short distances and he is quite a solid tackler- not a pushover like say Bannan ( In passing Rochina really gets stuck in and in the air too-- you may like him in due course??). Coke too is quite a hard tackler. The pair of them made us a bit tougher in midfield than we sometimes are.
Coke overall is less obvious and he did some good things. I can't remember any obvious howlers. It may be he deserved a 6? But overall I have yet to be impressed. Need to see him more. But as an extra body in midfield and in position he was able to close opponents down so that they rarely threatened and Ream in pariticular had a much easier time of it defensively than he sometimes does behind the likes of Feeney. ( Apart from his horrendous error in the first half that is)
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Post by andyl on Mar 18, 2015 16:34:45 GMT
Re Bogdan I've heard him too and I 've also heard Lonergan shout. They tend to do it when in form. And of course we are seldom near enough to hear. A criticism I have of the both is that they are inconsistent, subject to fluctuations in form and I think are more or less vocal at various times?. Bogdan was imperious at Liverpool and indeed before that v Wigan. I guess he will be no 2 for a while unless NL restores him at Wigan. I'll be amazed if NL restores Lonergan at Wigan...but as I think we are learning Neil Lennon does what he wishes when he wishes and quite impulsively...that is in some ways no bad thing and after DF it's refreshingly reinvigorating..but he should stick with Amos for now?
But my main point is that Amos is doing the basics of keeping consistently well and personally I will always favour good basics, presence and command over amazing saves. Last night Amos made one of those as well. How he got up after the ball rebounded off his post to dive the other way and hold a low well struck shot I don't know. And yet it almost appeared routine. Can he do it for the next ten years? Time will tell.
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Post by greydad on Mar 19, 2015 0:17:33 GMT
NL must be frustrated beyond belief, as evinced by his description of experienced players with a 'weak mentality'. I'm not sure about the wisdom of publicly bemoaning players' shortcomings, but he must be running out of patience with so many familiar failings. His team selection, one which probably rang many alarm bells before kick off, almost achieved a commendable result, and more composure and accuracy in front of goal would have seen his charges go in at least 2 goals up at half-time. Play was at times exhilarating, Rochina in particular, but equally noticeable was the effectiveness of the Whites in restricting Ipswich to a good deal of aimless and inaccurate punting . Vela was indeed tenacious and unrelenting in his role, Trotter and Coke were generally a physical match for their opponents, and despite some lapses in accuracy of passing and concentration ( a criticism that could be levelled at others too) they stuck to their tasks, and we were not overrun in midfield to the extent that we often were against Millwall...it was inevitable that pressure would mount as the second half progressed, but Ipswich were restricted to 4 attempts on target over the 90 minutes. Amos deserved a clean sheet, an excellent showing again, the back 3 coped pretty well albeit without looking particularly comfortable...Ream had his least composed game for a while, but did not go to pieces and got in some valuable blocks and headers, whilst Walker worked very hard both as a support on the left of midfield, and as a threat going forward, another mature performance from him. For all the nervy moments afforded by Mills, Dervite and Ream, Varney and Murphy were pretty well restricted, Sears benefitted from a couple of slips but failed to punish the defence or breach Amos' resistance....Tabb's goal was flukey in the extreme. Craig Davies continues to frustrate, caught offside too often, and giving too many fouls away, but the setting up of the team required a physical, mobile presence and he and Rochina all but conjured up a wonderful goal. Eidur looked shattered , but is always liable to receive the ball, take opponents out of the game and set up a chance...he was ready for the change when it came, and Bannan settled in quite well to his role. I would have liked to see Moxey on to shore things up rather than Hall coming on and try to protect a valuable point at least. ALF would not have been as shot-shy as others were last night, and it is to be hoped that he is ok for Saturday. In hard facts, yet another disappointing away defeat, again by a single goal, but not a demoralizing one in terms of the overall performance. Results elsewhere were favourable last night and tonight, so let's hope the Whites can lay their away demons to rest on Saturday.
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Post by OohMac on Mar 19, 2015 0:42:08 GMT
The problems for me are easy to point out. Mills cant concentrate, Dervite is up and down, Moxey isn't quite at this level, Danns is clumsy at best, Feeney cannot cross, Gudjohnson can't play a full game never mind 3 times a week, Heskey is a bit useless and Craig Davies again like Moxey cannot slag then off. They're honest. But honestly they belong in League One.
Positives, backbone is or will or can be there. Amos,Wheater, Vela, Clough, Pratley, Clayton, Le Fondre. Sign these players up and build round them. They will be combative next year im sure
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