|
|
Post by MAT on Mar 17, 2022 21:19:42 GMT
Boris, thanks for your interest. It was a righto to his suggestion that I didn’t need to respond. Life’s too short to cook cabbages twice. I didn’t feel the need to go farther into “thick/cobblers.”
|
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Mar 21, 2022 9:55:59 GMT
Ha, nicely sidestepped MAT. 🤣
Can the Russian people be so stupid and myopic though, not to realise what’s really happening in Ukraine? I accept that they are being blitzed by propaganda from Putin but surely with many having families in Ukraine who are suffering their lives and homes destroyed in the name of rescuing them from neo naziism, surely they can’t be naive enough to continue to believe it? Then again, do we ignore the possibility that it was actually Ukrainian neo nazi groups in the East who created the problems in that region in the first place, persecuting the Russian speaking population as Putin claims. They certainly exist and seem to have a growing influence and may be a blocker to a swift resolution. Clearly Putin needs to sit down with Zelensky and sort something out and both need to do it with a conciliatory attitude.
|
|
|
|
Post by MAT on Mar 21, 2022 16:06:38 GMT
Well I didn’t think I was sidestepping in my response to Boris, Whites. I know you’re not thick, and as far as talking cobblers is concerned, no more so than all of us from time to time, probably. When I wrote, Righto, I just meant I’ll take you at your word and not carry on the same topic. It didn’t seem to be generating anything worthwhile
I don’t know about the Russian people and what they think of the special military operation. We only have the sources we see regularly to go off. The videos I see regularly show people who are backing Putin, as well as the placard waversv who decry him. But we don’t know what the true proportions might be, do we.
I think too there is a blitz of pro Putin propaganda doing the rounds in Russia intended to exclude anything contra.
And I think you have a good point about families remaining in touch across the border. There is surely an information flow that way that is hard to pollute.
I don’t know about Ukrainian Neo Nazi groups in Eastern Ukraine fomenting discontent and maybe blocking potential peacebrokring. I haven’t heard of them, and it may be you are better informed than me in this respect(Ouch)!
|
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Mar 21, 2022 16:38:37 GMT
I’m surprised at that MAT as you’re usually so up on things like that but I suggest you gen up on the Azov regiment who are a group of ultra right wing fighters who have caused most of the issues in the Donbas region that Putin says forced him to act. Strangely, although a former street fighting group, they were actually integrated into the Ukrainian army and this has clearly given Putin the excuse that the whole Ukrainian government is neo nazi sympathetic. Like I’ve said before, there are two sides to every story and whilst we see things from our anti Putin stance, clearly the Russians see it very differently through their own propaganda machine. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between but one thing I do know is that an organisation like Azov would never be tolerated in this country and certainly wouldn’t be constituting part of our armed forces. Ukraine is a corrupt country, that’s well accepted and I have to say that even allowing for the Russian atrocities, I question whether Zelensky and his government are really all they seem?
|
|
|
|
Post by MAT on Mar 21, 2022 21:16:21 GMT
Yes, thanks for the heads up, Whites. I googled Azov Battalion. They seem to be a nasty lot. You’re right of course about two sides. So hard to know what sources to trust the most.
Whatever happens, Ukraine is going to need to need substantial reconstruction, physical, financial and cultural. Goodness knows who will end up paying. Russia too will be ruined for years, particularly if the warfare becomes attritional, and Western unity holds good for sanctions.
Finally, I don’t know about Zelensky and his government. For the moment, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I can’t watch British TV coverage of events over there without wishing Ukraine well in what to me seems a battle of good versus evil. All black and white at the moment, I realise, but that’s how I see it for now.
|
|
|
|
Post by boris on Mar 22, 2022 7:38:26 GMT
I think it's a case of Russia invading a sovereign country and killing innocent civilians. There was peace before Putin decided to invade and Ukraine must be viewed as the oppressed and weaker neighbour.
Russia is the aggressor and must be made to pay for their invasion and wanton destruction of cities. Their military is being depleted along with their armed forces. Stories of dissent and troops refusing to fight along with 1000's of dead Russians. It's not going Putin's way and he's bitten off more than he can chew. Russia is finished as far as diplomacy and trade with the west is concerned. I'll say it again, Putin has put Russia back 50 years and as the sanctions begin to bite, his country folk might begin to realise what a monster he is!
|
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Mar 22, 2022 9:20:37 GMT
I agree with that Boris, Putins biggest problem comes when the war eventually ends. Once social media returns to Russians and the real facts come out rather than the propaganda that’s been propagated so far, the people will realise how misled they were. Putin can’t keep this quiet indefinitely for all his bravado and eventually the truth will out. It then depends on those around Putin to either support him or remove him because totalitarian state or not, you can’t ignore the people forever. Of course the war isn’t over yet and much more damage and destruction can still occur, so we’ll have to wait and see how things develop. Frankly though, the deeper Putin digs in and the more Russian deaths result, the more desperate he may become and then everything may be possible from him. You can only hope that in terms of nuclear, those around him pull him back but I wouldn’t want to bet on it. We have to understand that Russian people aren’t like us, they accept totalitarian government and are fiercely nationalistic. A little like the jihadi’s they seem to consider dying for their state of Mother Russia is acceptable, Chernobyl exemplified that with thousands “doing their duty” despite knowing it was probably a death sentence. Negotiate now and be pragmatic and accepting that areas like Crimea and Donbas are lost to Ukraine for now. That may change in the future, who knows, but for now, let’s just find a way to end this conflict and let people return to their homes.
|
|
|
|
Post by boris on Mar 29, 2022 12:10:08 GMT
The Kremlin is this morning reporting that the majority of Russians support Putin. Well, why wouldn't they, especially as they are pumping false information to them. If Putin thinks this is going to go away then he's completely misjudged the whole thing. When the war ends and the western media is once again allowed to publish 'real' news, how is he going to explain away the thousands of innocent men, women and children he's killed?
When the economy is on It's knees and mass unemployment ravages the country, how's he going to explain that away? This will drag on for decades or until he's removed from power either democratically (Russian democracy that is)or, he's just removed!
|
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Mar 29, 2022 17:53:42 GMT
Looks like Putins wanting a way out now boris with his increased interest in a resolution with Ukraine. As well as the social media reactions when it opens up on Ukrainian casualties, he’s also got to explain the Russian ones and that won’t be easy. It wouldn’t surprise me that if there is an agreement, which appears to give them both a way out, Putin goes within 12 months and I mean stands down and disappears off to enjoy his ill gotten gains. I’m sure there will be pressure for him to do that from within as they will know just how much of a failure this really has been for the country. Let’s hope it’s soon before more lives are lost on both sides.
|
|
|
|
Post by boris on Mar 30, 2022 9:55:04 GMT
I did say a few post ago that Putin would look for a way out and not leave egg on his face. Seems the cynicism is still being pumped out with Russia's claim to be pulling back from Kyev (funny, we all called it Kiev before the war) yet is is still shelling Chernihiv which was another province it claimed to be pulling back from. Of course, we are used to the lies and falsehoods continually dribbling from the mouth of Putin and his warped generals.
If nothing else, this war has shown that the so called mighty Russia is just not capable of winning a conventional war and would be annihilated by NATO in a similar conflict. Only his threat of nuclear holocaust prevents severe retribution from the west!
|
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Mar 30, 2022 17:16:13 GMT
I did say a few post ago that Putin would look for a way out and not leave egg on his face. Seems the cynicism is still being pumped out with Russia's claim to be pulling back from Kyev (funny, we all called it Kiev before the war) yet is is still shelling Chernihiv which was another province it claimed to be pulling back from. Of course, we are used to the lies and falsehoods continually dribbling from the mouth of Putin and his warped generals. If nothing else, this war has shown that the so called mighty Russia is just not capable of winning a conventional war and would be annihilated by NATO in a similar conflict. Only his threat of nuclear holocaust prevents severe retribution from the west! Agree with all that Boris, including Russias capability in conventional warfare, so much that to prevent retaliation by NATO they threaten nuclear war. Sadly they continue to make empty promises about pulling back and humanitarian corridors and it does lead you to ask the question as to whether Putin or his generals really are in control? The “ master plan” seems to have gone badly wrong and could the real truth about Russias failures be being kept back from Putin? Maybe he’s getting propaganda back from his troops which is inaccurate? Putin has to rely purely on what he’s being told and who knows if that’s accurate. On the other hand he may be well aware of Russias problems but the fact is we just don’t know I’m afraid. |
|
|
|
Post by MAT on Mar 30, 2022 18:26:20 GMT
Well you’re both right on one matter. There’s a lot we don’t know about what’s going on in Russia at the moment, in terms of Putin’s advice circle, his own personal responsibility for what’s happening, and the avenues of information channelling through to those who are involved in decision making.
Just a comment on one aspect of the news on telly recently that struck me. That is the involvement of Roman Abramovic in the Istanbul peace talks. I didn’t know he was so closely involved with the Russian government machine. His name cropped up a little earlier when he was flying in and out of Moscow on what sounded like official government business, but details were sketchy.
And as a side issue to that, I was puzzled to see the mention of the suspected poisoning of Abramovic and a couple of colleagues, while in Istanbul.
|
|
|
|
Post by boris on Mar 30, 2022 19:21:03 GMT
Well MAT, we all know the first casualty of war is the truth and there's been plenty of that from both sides. As for Abramovic, It's quite well known he moves in high circles and reputedly is a good friend of Putin.
Just going back to something whites said in his last post regarding Putin and his generals. Sort of reminds me of the last months of Hitlers reign, when no one could tell him his army was being soundly beaten. Just imagine if Putin is not being told the truth, after all, they are masters at subterfuge and maybe Putin only gets to hear what they want him to hear!
|
|
|
|
Post by whitesince63 on Mar 31, 2022 9:29:02 GMT
Yes, it’s difficult to quantify Abramovic’s involvement. Is he just trying to gain favour again here to keep his billions or is he genuinely trying to promote peace? Either way, it seems the poisoning was a warning but we don’t really know who was behind it. Was it Putin or others with an interest in stopping him? As for the information Putins getting, there will clearly be some around him who disagree with what he’s doing and others who are probably supportive but maybe because they want him to fail so they can replace him. There’s clearly unrest and as you say Boris, it does remind you of Hitler when he lost confidence in his generals because he didn’t like what they were saying to him. You’d think that in his current position he won’t know who to trust and that can bring its own problems. I’d be wary of forcing him into a corner though because we all know what could potentially happen if he is. Much better if he can see a way out which makes him look good to the Russian people, although I think eventually the population will find out the real truth about what’s happening and that’s when I think he’ll step down. The problem then is, who takes his place because sometimes it’s better the devil you know!! 🙁
|
|
|
|
Post by boris on Apr 14, 2022 20:01:57 GMT
Interesting developments with the attack on Russia's flagship. No definite proof of a missile attack but It's looking increasingly likely that it was no accident. Adds more cost to the replacement of military hardware for Putin and a smack in the mouth.
|
|
