Post by andyl on Jan 30, 2020 11:18:41 GMT
I cut and paste below the full version of my emailed response to bwfc. We probably ought to have a thread on this?
Dear BWFC,
Thank you for the opportunity to comment on the above proposal. I have supported BWFC since 1958 and since the early 1990s have held two, initially four, season tickets. On relocation from Burnden to the Reebok we migrated from Gt Lever to the N Upper , later family, stand. I have not lived in the Bolton area since 1970. I travel to all home games, more or less and used to travel to numbers of away games.
I fully understand and accept that it may be commercially not viable to open all areas of the ground for Division 2 fixtures and an assumed 10000 average attendance, if that. The continued existence of BWFC is paramount and it is entirely due to Football Ventures Ltd that we are now looking forward. If the club will suffer financially then of course areas of the ground must be mothballed.
It is, in my opinion, quite false to argue that the atmosphere would be better if only lower tiers were used. There is a good atmosphere in the family stand and the presence of children and the absence of unruly elements of the fanbase makes the experience all the better. I know, of course that elements of the crowd quite reasonably want to sing/chant and support the club and there can be occasional enhanced excitement in close proximity to other fans fans. However in general when lower tiers only have been used for cup games I would argue that atmosphere has if anything dissipated. For other elements amongst whom I count myself atmosphere is entirely related to the performance of the team on the pitch and its competitiveness. I can not imagine that any configuration of the fanbase for Tuesday's home fixture v Bristol Rovers would , given the abject fare, have engendered any atmosphere.
My principal argument, if not for the status quo, at least for avoiding a move to lower tiers only is, though about spectator enjoyment and safety. Sadly, these days I attend few if any away games and only if they are well away from Lancashire. Why? It is because significant numbers of fans are not interested in foootball per se. They insist on standing, which alas I and lots of fans neither can nor wish to anymore. Restricted view watching is inevitable...They can be obstreperous and abusive, racist and just generally unpleasant. Quite commonly they do not watch the game but turn away and incite others. I have been jostled, pushed and generally inconvenienced. This is seldom deliberate, I recognise, but it is not atmospheric- let's describe and respond to it as it is, please and pull no punches.
I recognise that there can be a good view in East and West stands, albeit sun and rain affected in the East but at present there would appear to be enough space not to create undue congestion. If however everyone is herded into the lower tiers it is certain that there would be greater congestion, queues to enter and leave the stadium, delays to buses. If we then add some of the unruly elements from the previous paragraph the experience far from being atmospheric will deteriorate for those who sit there now of preference and be a poor substitute for the freedom and aerial view of the upper stands. In my case I also prefer an end-on view of the pitch to a side -on, even if over the halfway line..
There is another aspect of crowd behaviour which should affect the debate. Nowadays some fans bob up and down and leave their seats to go to bars, make early departures and generally lack any attention span. When attending cup games it is not unknown for fans to enter late and others to get up and go out in the first few minutes. Some go out repeatedly. In general this was not the behaviour of the Burnden crowd and as a boy I stood in some very large crowds when hardly anyone went out or sat in stands when the merest movement brought cries of 'siddown' and were universally ratified. I would be wholly supportive of any move to create secure standing areas. Much has been lost for those who wish to stand as I used to when I could and maybe this is the way to create atmosphere for some.
I do not know how seats would be allocated. First come first served would discriminate against those living at distance; giving preference to current lower stand season ticket holders would discriminate against those being relocated and not so doing against those who have sat in the same lower tier seats for 20+years. Or will there be premium seats for those who can pay? All seems wrong to me.
In conclusion, I would reluctantly accept relocation if club finances were imperilled, although the experience would determine how often I attended but let's not confuse this with questionable arguments about atmosphere. That is improved by a well managed, competitive team giving its all in whatever division it plays and secondarily by crowd size with which it is in an integral relationship. If change is a must then I would argue that keeping the family stand in the North Upper should be a significant consideration , both for families and those who wish to sit and avoid the close packed congested lower tiers with all the issues I alert above. Let's prioritise the fan experience first and give equal opportunity to all fans irrespective of age, ability or disability or gender to support bwfc. Moving everyone to lower tiers would create logistical problems, lose season ticket holders and in my opinion signal a further deterioration of enjoyment, increase health and safety risks and disadvantage many for spurious atmospheric gain. A balanced, manageable approach for all would be much to be preferred.
Yours sincerely
Andy L
Dear BWFC,
Thank you for the opportunity to comment on the above proposal. I have supported BWFC since 1958 and since the early 1990s have held two, initially four, season tickets. On relocation from Burnden to the Reebok we migrated from Gt Lever to the N Upper , later family, stand. I have not lived in the Bolton area since 1970. I travel to all home games, more or less and used to travel to numbers of away games.
I fully understand and accept that it may be commercially not viable to open all areas of the ground for Division 2 fixtures and an assumed 10000 average attendance, if that. The continued existence of BWFC is paramount and it is entirely due to Football Ventures Ltd that we are now looking forward. If the club will suffer financially then of course areas of the ground must be mothballed.
It is, in my opinion, quite false to argue that the atmosphere would be better if only lower tiers were used. There is a good atmosphere in the family stand and the presence of children and the absence of unruly elements of the fanbase makes the experience all the better. I know, of course that elements of the crowd quite reasonably want to sing/chant and support the club and there can be occasional enhanced excitement in close proximity to other fans fans. However in general when lower tiers only have been used for cup games I would argue that atmosphere has if anything dissipated. For other elements amongst whom I count myself atmosphere is entirely related to the performance of the team on the pitch and its competitiveness. I can not imagine that any configuration of the fanbase for Tuesday's home fixture v Bristol Rovers would , given the abject fare, have engendered any atmosphere.
My principal argument, if not for the status quo, at least for avoiding a move to lower tiers only is, though about spectator enjoyment and safety. Sadly, these days I attend few if any away games and only if they are well away from Lancashire. Why? It is because significant numbers of fans are not interested in foootball per se. They insist on standing, which alas I and lots of fans neither can nor wish to anymore. Restricted view watching is inevitable...They can be obstreperous and abusive, racist and just generally unpleasant. Quite commonly they do not watch the game but turn away and incite others. I have been jostled, pushed and generally inconvenienced. This is seldom deliberate, I recognise, but it is not atmospheric- let's describe and respond to it as it is, please and pull no punches.
I recognise that there can be a good view in East and West stands, albeit sun and rain affected in the East but at present there would appear to be enough space not to create undue congestion. If however everyone is herded into the lower tiers it is certain that there would be greater congestion, queues to enter and leave the stadium, delays to buses. If we then add some of the unruly elements from the previous paragraph the experience far from being atmospheric will deteriorate for those who sit there now of preference and be a poor substitute for the freedom and aerial view of the upper stands. In my case I also prefer an end-on view of the pitch to a side -on, even if over the halfway line..
There is another aspect of crowd behaviour which should affect the debate. Nowadays some fans bob up and down and leave their seats to go to bars, make early departures and generally lack any attention span. When attending cup games it is not unknown for fans to enter late and others to get up and go out in the first few minutes. Some go out repeatedly. In general this was not the behaviour of the Burnden crowd and as a boy I stood in some very large crowds when hardly anyone went out or sat in stands when the merest movement brought cries of 'siddown' and were universally ratified. I would be wholly supportive of any move to create secure standing areas. Much has been lost for those who wish to stand as I used to when I could and maybe this is the way to create atmosphere for some.
I do not know how seats would be allocated. First come first served would discriminate against those living at distance; giving preference to current lower stand season ticket holders would discriminate against those being relocated and not so doing against those who have sat in the same lower tier seats for 20+years. Or will there be premium seats for those who can pay? All seems wrong to me.
In conclusion, I would reluctantly accept relocation if club finances were imperilled, although the experience would determine how often I attended but let's not confuse this with questionable arguments about atmosphere. That is improved by a well managed, competitive team giving its all in whatever division it plays and secondarily by crowd size with which it is in an integral relationship. If change is a must then I would argue that keeping the family stand in the North Upper should be a significant consideration , both for families and those who wish to sit and avoid the close packed congested lower tiers with all the issues I alert above. Let's prioritise the fan experience first and give equal opportunity to all fans irrespective of age, ability or disability or gender to support bwfc. Moving everyone to lower tiers would create logistical problems, lose season ticket holders and in my opinion signal a further deterioration of enjoyment, increase health and safety risks and disadvantage many for spurious atmospheric gain. A balanced, manageable approach for all would be much to be preferred.
Yours sincerely
Andy L
